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Religion and Raves – Compatible?

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  • Hi l’ve edited this post as l am bored and have run out of things to say, and besides l think this post was unclear and too full-on-sounding. Anyway, l reckon the Abrahamic faiths, Judaism, Christianity and Islam do not allow ppl to become ravers in the sense of going to modern day raves. For example, those religions don’t let boys and girls get together in such atmospheres. [e.g. St. Paul saying that a wife should always walk behind her hubby [citation needed] and that women should wear veils (1 Corinthians 11:13-16). And Sharia Law in Islam requires a woman to be veiled. Zoroastrianism has similar laws, and l would imagine Buddhism and Hinduism and Mormonism etc etc do too, so wouldn’t hard core partying and stuff like that contradict the principles of modesty in apparel etc.].

    Religions such as these are ok, but left at the door.

    Not because they are equally frowned upon, but because they are simply incompatible with being a hippy. They may have compatible spiritual aspects, and that’s why it seems ok for Christians (for example) to go to raves these days, because most Christians only adhere to the spiritual side of the religion. However, the actual Law of the religions, which is fundemental to them, makes the Abrahamic religions incompatible with going to raves.

    Sure can talk about God or atheism or fishing or whatever, when you’re on E and raving, but religion = Law, not any simple, raw belief in God(s).

    Not sure how Judaism stands on the topic, but l’m sure it would be against it too, probably more so if the Orthodoxy is to be considered.

    I would hope the hippy / religionist / atheist / deist / anyone else etc etc. would be sincere & chivalrous, in other words, show consistency, not mixing things up and being unrealistic.

    (that applies to religious ppl and ravers, as there seems to be tension on both sides)

    Footnote:

    It’s not just [Abrahamic] religions. The same goes for any pair of contradictory systems. For example, being a strict follower of the philosophers Nietzsche and Schoppenhauer and being a hippy at the same time:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

    Arthur Schopenhauer is famous for his essay “On Women” (Über die Weiber), in which he expressed his opposition to what he called “Teutonico-Christian stupidity” on female affairs. He claimed that “woman is by nature meant to obey.” The essay does give two compliments however: that “women are decidedly more sober in their judgment than [men] are” and are more sympathetic to the suffering of others. However, the latter was discounted as weakness rather than humanitarian virtue.

    Nietzsche is known for arguing that every higher form of civilization implied stricter controls on women [Beyond Good and Evil, 7:238]; he frequently insulted women, but is best known for phrases such as “Women are less than shallow,” and “Are you going to women? Do not forget the whip!” Nietzche’s reputation as a misogynist is disputed by some, pointing out that he also made unflattering statements about men.

    To finish orf, l hope that a raver/hippy might take on a greater degree of ambivalence to worldly contentions l guess, but being critical of artistic matters is still “cool” as that is higher up than laws and fixed behaviour and the vicissitudes of life.

    What if rave is your religion…? :weee::weee::weee:

    noname wrote:
    What if rave is your religion…? :weee::weee::weee:

    Then it won’t contradict rave…

    It’s like ppl out to do vegetarian shopping wandering into a butchers, they shouldn’t go for each other’s throats, but they ought not be put at crossed purposes either…

    My definition of a religion is something which has solid clear-cut revelations and laws besides a spiritual core, but hippies are just spiritual or hedonistic or whatever, minus any such laws, aren’t they? I mean, there’s still the rules of doing to others what you would have done to yourself but no superficial laws such as growing your sidelocks or shaving your head or even doing your tax returns by September. Of course when you get home you might want to look at your tax returns.

    I think hippies are more like gnostic movements or just simple tribes that don’t focus on spirituality. Mind you in the past, there have been tribes such as the Mongols, the Gipsies, the Goths etc. who had members of different religions all in the same tribe, so maybe religion is ok to be expressed. But then again, those tribes all had leaders who made sure everything was ok.

    I really don’t know the answer!

    Anyone remember the church of the 9 O’clock service?

    Quote:
    The Rise and Fall of the Nine O’clock Service

    A cult within the Church?

    By Roland Howard

    1996

    ISBN 0-264-67419-7

    Softback price approximately 7 pounds Sterling -Mobray (Great Britain)

    From the introduction

    Before the Nine O’clock Service (NOS) hit the headlines the story was a radical night-club style Church of England, raving in the isles. Then in the media frenzy the story was a Randy Vicar . . .on an unprecedented scale . . The real story is more disturbing . . . Underneath the carefully manicured exterior, the real story is of a man who seemed, according to many, to have a megalomaniac desire to control other people, of a complex, secretive organisation, where unknown to many, abuse existed; of a leadership convinced that their leader was God’s mouth piece who was going to save western civilisation. Yet it is also clear that the Revd C B was no mere pantomime villain. The ‘vision’ that he held out to his congregation was intelligent and relevant, and although most members I interviewed believe that he behaved cynically and cruelly, others point to a struggle within him between his passion for justice and his desire for power. Some are convinced that his mission was genuine, while others suggest that he lost his way. Many are convinced that he was a skilful and ruthless power seeker.

    The real story is of a congregation’s sacrifice of hundreds of thousands of pounds, of careers, and of their minds, bodies, souls and dress sense. The real story is of lawyers, doctors, professors, psychiatrists, theologians, football fans and clubbers convinced that their leader was a prophet who could change the world.

    The real story is of betrayal and abuse, of a leader living in luxury and travelling the world in designer clothes whilst his congregation largely lived in the ‘simple lifestyle’. It is of a minister, according to some ,sexually involved with some 40 female members of his congregation. More over, it is of a priest manipulating, controlling and dominating the minds of several hundred members who thought he was ministering to them. The power was power to damn, power to humiliate, power to enter peoples minds and power to control them. The real story is of a cult in the Church of England (Anglican or Episcopalian – ED) . . . . . . . This is the story of C B and of his disciples, whose commitment and idealism were awesome and whose betrayal was devastating. This is the story of pioneering and relevant theology, corrupted into systematic abuse. But the Nine o’clock Service is not only a story concerning abuse; it is also a story of integrity and idealism, of wrestling with the complexities and addictions of contemporary life as Christians . . For most it was the importance and relevance of the church’s vision that held their loyalty, and that made it harder to recognise the abuse. The corruption of the best they say is the worst”.

    Introduction to this article.

    Roland Howard interviewed an unknown number of NOSERS and NOSers following the fall of the church in August 1995. The following extracts are from an article he wrote to publicise his book (advertised above).

    When reading the accounts in his book, and more particularly in the article that follows, it is important to remember the self selecting nature of his subjects, and the kind of agendas that different groups of NOSERS may have had. Sensibly Roland merely reports the differing accounts, however this can lead to an over emphasis on the ‘CB evil hypnotic genius hypothesis’.

    When trying to comprehend how people could end up in this trap I would suggest that the following points be remembered

    1. Most people joining the church were psychological refugees from the emotional abuse that often characterises charismatic churches, or from the intellectual desert of fundametalist evangelicalism. Both these faiths have a powerful experience at their hearts, which many would be members were desperate to make sense of.

    2. After 10 years only the most easily manipulated were at the heart of NOS. Anyone who could have stood against the church’s culture were marginalised until they left (usually deeply embittered), or lurked around the fringes. Roland’s book suffers greatly from its journalistic style, and its disgused mixing of primary and secondary sources (ie: unreferenced quotes). In other words the spin of August 95 is often mixed with the spin of ex leaders. Never the less it is a thought provoking read, if read in a wider context of NOS knowledge, and must surely prove of value to people in similar circumstances.

    THE SUNDAY TIMES Magazine 25 August 1996

    Page 28

    BLURB: “The Raving Reverend”

    Young worshippers flocked to Chris Brain’s ecstatic Nine o’clock Services. His charisma mesmerised his followers1. Even the Church of England seemed spellbound: when this woman (not shown-ED) reported Brain to his Bishop, her evidence was ignored. Then all hell broke loose. Rowland Howard reports.

    The young Sheffield vicar was the golden boy of the Anglican Church. Not only was B’s rave style Nine O’Clock Service (NOS) bringing hundreds of new worshippers into the fold, but his dynamic leadership was to be studied and emulated. The Archbishop of C, Dr G C, praised the ministry. Hundreds of clergy visited his parish (NOS WAS NOT A PARISH and CB was not a parish priest!–ED) each year to learn from his success.

    NOS used rave [dance -ED] music, theatrical ritual, and multimedia effects to create a form of Christianity that grew out of their own milieu: urban club culture. B’s magnetism drew hundreds of young people to the church2, including many professionals who donated thousands of pounds, signed away their houses and committed their lives to him. In less that 2 years NOS was 400 strong, eventually growing to 600 (not COE figures -ED). At a time when other congregations were dwindling, this was a modern miracle. A lay leader (frounted a house group- ED) in 1986, when he set up NOS at St Thomas’s, in Crookes, Sheffield , Brain was given a special ‘fast track’ ordination to allow him to minister to his congregation (i.e His period as a decon was very short- ED).

    Respect for him was so great that he was invited to write a chapter in the prestigious book “Treasures of the Field”, of which the Archbishop of Canterbury was co-editor [ Treasures in the Field edited by Gillet and Scott-Joynt, 1993, has 46 contributors, CB’s semi literate effort runs to 12 pages out of 336 pages -ED]. Hundreds [surely some mistake- ED] of copy cat services sprang up; Carey went out of his way to encourage them. One internationally known theologian described NOS as a “proto type mass culture church” whose impact “is to bring into question what is done in the wider church”

    But Brain was soon to fall from grace. A year ago he was suspended following revelations that he had been involved with a “score” of women in his congregation, and allegations that his church was abusive and cult like. Hundreds of traumatised Nine O’clock Service members told their own stories of abuse as they realised how far they had been sucked into a dangerous, insular world. Tales emerged of . . . . .ludicrous spending sprees and of a secretive team of “handmaidens” who served Brain.

    Many [some and not publicly-ED] in Brain’s congregation considered him a prophet sent to save the western world by reinventing Christianity for the 21st century. Yet his teaching were distinctly unorthodox. He encouraged his “inner circle” to be unfaithful to their spouses and to raise “spiritual energy” by masturbating, and offered women healing through an exploration of sexual intimacy with him. Brain . . . was a genius at manipulating and exploiting his congregation while at the same time duping theologians, academics and the Anglican authorities.

    One year on, NOS is no more. Some of its members are receiving counselling. Some still swear that they now see the whole of Christianity as a cult, while others point to the things they believe NOS got right and are keen to rebuild on them. . . . .CB who is now 39, was suspended from his ministry last November and is still in hiding. He has not been charged in any criminal or ecclesiastical court. A handful of members claim he has been made a scape goat.

    In the course of researching a book on the subject, I heard disturbing tales that reveal the depth and complexity of abuse that people experienced. What makes this sadder was that members had such a deep commitment to their vision of Christianity. If this was a cult, the fact was harder to recognise because it apparently had so much to offer. The idealism and intelligence of those close to B were subtly skewed and compromised as they were sucked into a damaging parallel universe from which their was no easy way back

    S.C, . . . joined NOS in her early 20’s. She was . . idealistic and was attracted by NOS’s programme (never realised) for helping the poor. C rose to become one of B’s deputies. She says he gained control of people by using his acute powers of perception to nurture neuroses. His ability to open people up and control them was astonishing. In April 1989 C watched the news images of the Hillsborough disaster, in which scores of [Soccer] fans were crushed to death. She went down to help the over stretched emergency services ,and organised for other NOS volunteers to help relatives seeking their loved ones . She returned home at 6 am, numbed after seeing corpses and distraught families, and told her partner that she was going to bed. After 2 hours sleep she was woken by B, who started stroking her hair and telling her how heroic she had been, how proud he was of her. A couple of weeks later he told a different story. He told her and other NOS leaders that they were evil, that God’s judgement was hovering over them, and that their death was a real possibility. He singled out C; he never wanted to see her acting in such a selfish egocentric way as she had at Hillsborough, he said.

    J.I had been converted to the faith by Brain as a teenager. He was manager of the organisation. . . He used to dread the weekly 20 minute meetings, called ‘see me’ sessions, at which he had to B’s agreement for the tinniest decisions. He would get up at 3 am to rehearse his lines and observe his own body language. If he was too assertive, he risked being attacked as an egomaniac masquerading behind false modesty.

    In the office, Brain sat with 3 black clad secretaries. One with a stop watch said “Go” and allowed the agreed number of seconds for his question. Another took minutes, and the third held up “yes”, “No” or “See me” answer boards. B sat mute and inscrutable. When B felt ‘I’ was being obsequious, he picked up a plastic backside from beneath his desk and held it in I’s face.

    C. . . a leading light behind NOS’s musical extravaganza, was, like most of the others, in her early 20’s when she joined . . . She was disturbed by B’s sexual manipulation. In the early days B made advances and excused him self by saying he was receiving counselling in relation to his sexuality. Subsequent visits to the ‘vicarage’ renewed her concern. ‘B’ had a hand picked group of young women called the homebase team to help him and his wife . . .in their domestic duties. When C arrived one day, the team were dressed provcatively, some in underclothes, as they went about their chores. One morning she arrived to find B discussing his sexuality with a team member. The young woman looked completely humiliated. On another occasion C had found a member of Homebase deeply distressed and in tears after B had verbally attacked her. But to speak out to outsiders about Homebase was considered an intrusion into B’s privacy, so C let the matter drop.

    M, now 31, . . . was the first member of NOS to do something about her misgivings. . .She was bowled over by what she saw inside [the worship services] but thought that here was a church taking Christ’s injunctions about housing . . . the homeless and feeding the poor seriously. . . .she became convinced that [NOS] . was dangerous. . . She hated the way he dominated the leaders, who idolised him and acquiesced to his abuse of power. When she complained of the complete absence of democracy in NOS, she was shunned and told to sort out her own psychological problems. She left in late 1992 and wrote to David Lunn, Bishop of Sheffield. But the NOS machine got there first, and warned them that M was unstable, urging him to discount her letter. Lunn met her but appeared to disregard what she had to say.
    The NOS community was trying to create a new model for healthy spirituality, rejecting dogma, abusive power structures and personality cults that lead to dependence. Unknown to many members, NOS it’s self was the very opposite. . . . It had screening procedures to ensure that those who joined were 100% committed. About 70% of those seeking to join were turned down or dropped out [not COE figures, and this only relates to dropping out of the induction process, not out of NOS once inducted -ED].

    New members were put into training groups for Bible study and prayer. But leaders were instructed to focus on personal problems. “in playing off married couples against each other time, “the quieter one I had to affirm and encourage. The idea was to wind up the dominant partner. We were told loving aggressively was good and Christianity wasn’t about being nice but about the “passionate fruits”, the hard edged aspects of the holy sprit”

    . . . . required makeover affecting lifestyle, attitude, and most noticeably, clothes. Members had to wear black.P that , to be really part of the culture of NOS she had to be “of the culture”

    F waited nearly a year. ” . . . . .he sent me out shopping with the NOS stylist . . . .For two days I bought a lot of clothes. I was told by C that if I wore them I could never wear the old clothes again. She lost weight, and dyed her hair black, stopped reading novels and knitting and stared listening to dance music and clubbing. Christian classics were recommended, as well as trendy magazines like ‘The face’ and ‘i_D’. F felt false reinventing her self in a weekend.

    Nobody’s integrity was undermined as greatly as those of the key leaders . . had the ability to create slavish dependence even with the most intelligent people. When he started a relationship , he always had the advantage of being an enigmatic figure whom had created a phenomenal church and was spoken of in hushed whispers by the leaders. He oozed charisma, and his jaw dropping service conferred an aura of mystery and power. His first approach was usually to flatter and create a sense of worth in the person. This could last weeks or months as he drew them in and encouraged them to discuss their weaknesses or sexual fantasies. He would hint at a greater involvement . . . .or a deeper relationship with him. He might tell a woman that he was lonely, that he’d been starved of affection and that she was helping him grow emotionally as she kissed and cuddled him.

    The next stage was to reject the person completely for no apparent reason, or to suggest that they had an undefined problem that was holding them back from a deeper friendship with him. He would start to perceive minor weaknesses, and gradually work on them until the person was convinced the had significant problems. He convinced several men that they were gay or misogynous, many were accused of being megalomaniacs or competitive. Sometimes he would feign “r play disclosure games to tease out hidden fears or skeletons in cupboards. Some are still convinced that B had psychic ability. Those who were close to him have, with few exceptions, lost their faith or gone into moths of intensive counselling or both.

    No group was more damaged than B’s . . . . unsurprisingly the bubble burst. One woman complained to the Bishop in April 1995 that B had tried to kiss her and that NOS was a cult, B . .denied it . . During the congregations break in July 1995 one of the service leaders resigned .. [Archdeacon] Lowe met her and was told about the Homebase team and of a clear example of sexual impropriety involving B. Lowe called all the NOS leaders together and told them of the allegations.

    Lowe started interviewing people . . .B seemed more shocked by the betrayal than by the allegations . . . Lowe formally suspended him. . . . A sort of corporate deprogramming took place in which hundreds of NOS members tried to face up to the scale of the abuse . . .in the following months it became clear that B’ misdemeanours were not confined to sex and power. His lifestyle was more suited to a company director . . . . . . . Most members say they have forsaken Christianity for good . . . Archbishop Carey has said ” one man should not be allowed to detract from the inspiration NOS has been to many, or deflect us form continuing to explores new expressions of worship

    1-Actually this isn’t all ways quite true, I was in or around NOS for 3 years and wasn’t evensure which one CB was when the news broke. The idea that I joined NOS to follow any person at all is very annoying. I don’t recognise this picture.

    2-This is misleading, he had not been receiving a stipend since officially resigning as NOS leader, and consequently had no ministry with NOS. He had only received a stipend intermittently at best, and not after his 1994 resignation. He was involved in some way with the SF group, but that was not financially supported by the COE, his original training had been as a Non stipendiary, that is volunteer -UNPAID-worker. When Roland refers to his CB’s ability to perform the duties of a priest within the Anglican communion it should be understood that CB remains a ‘priest’, in the technical sense in that no court case has been brought against him, but is effectively black balled. It is not certain that a legal case could have been won anyway, and the months of press coverage of the court case would have been very unpleasent . . . .

    3-Because black was very fashionable at the time, and NOS had roots in the goth fashion. There was no consistent uniform, and it did look good.

    4-Part of the church’s recruitment problem is one of ‘local culture, therefore the NOSers had to enculture themselves in what was meant to be the evangelism target: ‘club culture’


    lets remember that religion is a totally man made thing rather than spirituality, and belief, religion has changexd alot from what we think is a long time ago, middle east seems to be in a time warp with religion and it has changed much, this is how we have developed into letting gay maridges be alright, but theres great difference how ppl take in the “word of god”, whitch is the only proof religion has, this is as spirituality is more of a faith. now the question u are asking weather religion can work with raves is irrevelant. a rave is a way of life, religion is a belief, i cant have a belief in raves as they have soul proof that they happen. weather or not raves have time for religion is another topic, raves are free, they imbellish everyone who ever they are (even coppers), its weather religion has time for raves whitch is the main concern,

    i personally do believe in greater things than my self, i think there is a god, and im willing to go to raves, that does not mean that i dont sin, cos to be honest the hardest part of a faith is understanding that what ever you do in this world you sin, and excepting that someone much higher can forgive u is a big thought. altho religion in this day is very corrupted, eg iraq, the english church, amaerican christians, israel, atc etc etc. this is where religion has gone wrong and how i hate to associate myself to it

    hope that helped, probably didnt

    Money IS NOT the route of all evil,

    Religion IS the route of all evil…………………………….

    Greed is the root of all evil, namely greed for power, which a lot of religion has spawned from, and other fucked up things in this world.

    Dr Bunsen wrote:
    Anyone remember the church of the 9 O’clock service?

    http://members.tripod.com/~nineoclockservice/confs.htm

    that’s my kind of religion

    starlaugh wrote:
    Money IS NOT the route of all evil,

    Religion IS the route of all evil…………………………….

    Agree, most wars are caused by fuckin religion

    its not god or money that’s the root of all evil, its people

    people’s fear and greed

    Religion sucks big stylee’ but standing infront of a rig in a barn in the middle of no-where on a Sunday morning is most edifying’
    M’

    Playground Politics wrote:
    lets remember that religion is a totally man made thing rather than spirituality, and belief, religion has changexd alot from what we think is a long time ago, middle east seems to be in a time warp with religion and it has changed much, this is how we have developed into letting gay maridges be alright, but theres great difference how ppl take in the “word of god”, whitch is the only proof religion has, this is as spirituality is more of a faith. now the question u are asking weather religion can work with raves is irrevelant. a rave is a way of life, religion is a belief, i cant have a belief in raves as they have soul proof that they happen. weather or not raves have time for religion is another topic, raves are free, they imbellish everyone who ever they are (even coppers), its weather religion has time for raves whitch is the main concern,

    i personally do believe in greater things than my self, i think there is a god, and im willing to go to raves, that does not mean that i dont sin, cos to be honest the hardest part of a faith is understanding that what ever you do in this world you sin, and excepting that someone much higher can forgive u is a big thought. altho religion in this day is very corrupted, eg iraq, the english church, amaerican christians, israel, atc etc etc. this is where religion has gone wrong and how i hate to associate myself to it

    hope that helped, probably didnt

    GOD =

    G = Gravity

    O = Zero gravity’

    D = 3 dimension 4 5 etc

    Religion is “Slavery” designed by the so called hierarchy powers to keep control’
    The “Word of God” was oh so obviously written by men on weird and wonderful psychedelics for sure’
    Forgiveness comes from self, find your own truth’

    Motamba wrote:
    GOD =

    In my opinion Religion is “Slavery” designed by the so called hierarchy powers to keep control’
    I feel that The “Word of God” was oh so obviously written by men on weird and wonderful psychedelics for sure’
    if you ask me Forgiveness comes from self, find your own truth’

    i agree

    I think faith and god/s are a personal thing and think its difficult to justify criticising someone else’s faith just because you don’t have it

    but then again i’m a bleeding-heart liberal (not an actual possible standpoint for the obvious and inescapable reasons blah blah blah 😉 )

    When it comes to religion for me, I think you do it all the way, or not at all. There is no middle.

    You get your ass to church 2 or 3 times a week. You pray several times a day. You live the way the Bible says, as you understand it I guess, to a T. And you read it daily.

    Or

    You don’t.

    I’ve done both. Jehovah’s Witnesses have 4 meets a week, with a ministry school, and then I had 40 hours of field service (knocking on doors) that I did…forget it…there is too much guilt in religion for me anyway. I hate myself enough as it is.

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Forums Life Spirituality, Morality & Religion Religion and Raves – Compatible?