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Determining Physical Location on the Internet

Forums Life Computers, Gadgets & Technology Determining Physical Location on the Internet

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  • 30 years ago one of the chaps at the BBC Receving Station told me and a friend that no matter what signal you send across a telecoms network and what encryption you might use it can always be located as the signal would always travel at the speed of light – the only way to avoid this is to not send the signal at all; or to keep it within certain boundaries.

    Although the Internet complicates this due to the signal not always going via the most direct route and the information being broken up into packets this also means various metadata must accompany the data with timestamps (even through VPNs etc) otherwise so it can be reassembled in the correct sequence at the distance end (or especially such things as VOIP telephone calls would not work well or at all).

    To be fair many of the uses of this tech could be genuinely beneficial to non technical end users. Consider someone who wants to buy some fashion item from Amazon or wherever or use online banking wiéthout fear of a foreign hacker stealing and trying to use their data.

    it is correct that such tech could also be used by “repressive régimes” but so can all other computers, electronics etc – and the harsh facts are many of the leaders of these régimes clearly tend to look after their engineers and scientists quite well; otherwise they would have long since have fallen. When did you last hear of a Chinese or Russian computer programmer turning up as a refugee in England or Germany?

    As for Canadians Netflix being worse than USA ( I never watch it so don’t know how true that is ) its a political problem, not atech one ifthe TV producers do not want to license their content in another country.

    Hey you are absolutely correct in your 1st paragraph GL, but in my mind, when it’s not pure elctromagnetic wves and is certainly not travelling through a vacuum, so no matter how close you think you can get to the speed of light, you will never reach that in any medium that’s not a vacuum.

    The interestingf part of this, which I have not seen explained anywhere, is how this can geo-locate someone that might send the same request or whatever to exactly the same site, but use 2 totally different (unknown, unpredictble and the rest) routes through the available nodes? In my very limited and minimal knowledge, a VPN or single proxy is FAR easier to defeat, and actually the problem seems far from hard but obviously I am thinking of a very simplified situation here, my current VPN gives times in milliseconds to all accessible servers, whether I’m using them or not so to calculate the time from me to VPN server, then to target, then my fucking god just some basic 4 function arithmetic and you have a very near answer.

    @tryptameanie 978253 wrote:

    Hey you are absolutely correct in your 1st paragraph GL, but in my mind, when it’s not pure elctromagnetic wves and is certainly not travelling through a vacuum, so no matter how close you think you can get to the speed of light, you will never reach that in any medium that’s not a vacuum.

    there is a correction factor for the fibre optic cable. and the effdct of any wireless links and digital processing., These factors are well known by all the telecoms companies as it has to be used to keep circuits in synchronisation when carrrying real time data such as audio and video streaming. The telecoms companies are always doing this hard maths with their traffic analysis data; not to spy on folk but simply to see if things are working as they are. These Canadian profs are just building on this existig monitoring.

    Are you telling me that a fibre optic cable is capable, due to some algorithm, that it can make data travel faster than the laws of physics allow in glass?

    Mathematics is awesome and can achieve so much. It’s by a million miles my favourite thing to think about but maths isn’t just purely abstract bullshit, it’s is the only pure truth you can ever be certain of and certain of forever.

    @tryptameanie 978257 wrote:

    Are you telling me that a fibre optic cable is capable, due to some algorithm, that it can make data travel faster than the laws of physics allow in glass?

    unfortunately not (or that would surely be useful somewhere). The correction factor is <1 (though ideally near as possible such as 0,98) so the data is slightly delayed. The use of TOR/VPN/encryption at any points in the link delay the speed of each packet; often by amounts that make their presence detectable with enough good time sources and enough maths to process the data.

    Thanks for explaining GL, much appreciated and totally obvious. The point I made however is not for using a VPN, which is generally only routed from your PC to the particular VPN server you have selected and then onto your intended target. In that situation the calculations needed for this type of result would be totally fucking trivial to calculate. With TOR and at least 3 random hops that could bounce around the world at least twice via a completely random (and given the amount of trusted nodes in the TOR network the number of combinations is quite large), how and if this is capable of working given those problems is not at all clear to me.

    with TOR the profs look for such things as more jitter between each packet than usual (this is from a different method discussed in a paper around 2008 but is referenced in the Canadian paper and can be linked together alongside the use of GPS and other basic known info (such as the Telephone Exchange is usually in the same place). Hidden services always create a unique “noise” pattern to the point the NSA and GCHQ said they encouraged their use as it means they then know what to look for (the BBC dude also said this about using encrypt 3 decades ago).

    Once telecoms goes beyond a telephone wire or network cable going a known distance or a single radio transmitter it is not easy stuff to understand; even without crypto etc trying to work out how the data should get from one place to another and how long it may take is not easy

    That may be possible GL but I find it highly unlikely. The breach of TOR by Stanford however did modify packets but in an unusual way and one which would never be apparent to me (it was apparent to the TOR devs however and even when alerted to the presence of a potentially massive hack, ignored igt).

    It is hard to explain how geolocation of TOR is carried out but it can be done without monkeying around with the packets in any way. I am fairly certain it does regularly happen particularly throughout Northern Europe; especially with most bridges/exit nodes being confined to certain ISPs and/or being located in science Universities.

    Added to this many of those who are using it to get drugs/free stuff or other illegal items often don’t have as much tech knowledge as they might think and may use it in an insecure manner.

    The number of dark net dealers who get busted in NL and DE (not all of which gets reported in English language news) also correlates with this.

    It also appears that feds in USA and perhaps other countries are now blatantly tolerating some small scale dealing via normal HTTPS net; perhaps some are actually smart enough to realise this is the lesser of many evils as it prevents dealers and users getting drawn into a network that also trades stolen info, weapons and extreme porno (which very few party drug users want anything to do with in the first place).

    Geolocation was never done, they only managed to gain IP addresses which basically in the end gae them exactly the same but required an extra step.

    it is indeed not exact geolocation compared to this Canadian discovery and uses the source IP addresses but especially in European countries with more advanced fast broadband locating any source of traffic (encrypted or not) is trivial.

    Non intrusive monitoring is routinely carried out by the telecom companies/ISPs on the request of the Communications Ministries; paradoxically the more free and advanced a country is with regard to such issues as net neutrality and quality of service the more likely this will be carried out on a regular basis.

    that doesn’t mean they will trace and nick people just for using TOR but does mean if the activities of users cause obvious issues elsewhere [such as a rise in 112 calls due to suspected ODs/unusual behaviour due to drugs] or they are committing fraud and then try and convert the bitcoins into Euros to buy physical items then old fashioned Police work is used to gather evidence; and the darknet still leaves some data trail which adds to this.

    Some other interesting points you made GL, don’gt think you have answers and tbh if anyone did, they would almost certainly be of staggering complexity, but I am still totally in the dark as to how a timing analysis can be done over a, by design, totally random circuit. The only way to possibly measure and have any sort of metric for this, has to be a user who has actually traversed the exact same path through the network. Without doing this I fail to see how it is possible to have a benchmark/test that gives any isefull info on the user. I mean, if this were feasible over TOR (and I can certainly understand how and why it’s possible over single hop VPNs/proxies), it would need traceroute plus accurate timing (last oart not hard) for every possible route ever in the network, and even with only 3 nodes, calulating 3000-4000 nodes cubed is more than I can be arsed with r9ght now.

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Forums Life Computers, Gadgets & Technology Determining Physical Location on the Internet