NB This should go with the “getting parties legalised” thread but a filter won’t let me post to it.
sorry if this sounds very despondent (which is why I have waited some time before posting this so I could do some further research) – but my only thought is at the present time and with the rave scene in its present form “why on earth would there be a dialogue?”
those in charge of the land have power and support from their neighbours, and who negotiates away a position of power?
As elraveon correctly mentions we are dealing with an age-old feudal system of land ownership and class structures, to which has been bolted the modern concept of free market capitalism; a powerful machine indeed which is swiftly repaired when any attempt is made to sabotage or damage it and which adapts to changing circumstances.
our current so-called “rave community” cannot claim to be “starving peasants” or “oppressed minorities”.
whatever pressures the “babylon system” puts on us, few of us are short of food, we can usually get some kind of work or income, some form of shelter, and have access to a phenomenal amount of resources such as motor vehicles, fuel, sophisticated computers and multimedia equipment and most importantly spare time, even if in many cases it has been obtained by not wishing to climb the “social ladder” by spending more time at work or study. one common reaction I have noted from farmers where raves happen on their land is complete disbelief that people spend time, money and fuel travelling such a distance merely to listen to music…
the current argument of the antis (which unfortunately has a lot of credence amongst conventional society) is that “there is already a proper channel to hold these events via the Public Entertainments Licensing system, after appropriate liason with the Police and other authorities, and that all costs incurred by the public purse should be recovered from the organisers”.
Another argument is “are these events essential to society? What value do they add, or do they in fact merely cause problems of noise, mess/contamination, violent behaviour and a legacy of problematic drug use and health problems which burden the NHS?”
Going back in time, it appears that the “Merrie England” of fairs and festivals never actually existed; at least not in the carefree form people think it did.
I have a strange feeling that the “Merrie England” elraveon refers to may have been considerably more recent – in an era where Maddie Prior was a sort of hippy pin-up girl, people thought they were Robin Hood in camper vans 😉 and outdoor events were tolerated a bit more but only because England was a bit more prosperous (so Middle England felt less threatened) and amplifiers/loudspeakers were not as loud as they are now.
Even so many of these festivals were squashed or commercialised by the end of the 1970s..
The real Middle Age fairs were not “socialist utopias” but organised by the kings and lords as commercial enterprises and markets, and often employment agencies for servants, peasants and other muddied rabble, and such events as the sale of unwanted wives and the purchase of comely wenches for the pleasuring of the masters, whipping of strumpets at the cart tail etc.
The entertainments were put on merely as a sop to keep the peasants relatively happy until their next bout of feudal slavery; the lords would pay a shilling to the organisers as a “tab” so the new staff could enjoy the pleasures of the fair. These included binge-drinking, chasing after maidens, and games not dissimilar to modern soccer and rugby which usually ended up in a free fight between rival villages; and and such “sports” as shin-kicking and gurning (cue Benny Hill theme tune and chase scene of peasants/lords/wenches etc).
there were however a few notable occasions of collective bargaining for better wages/conditions because the peasantry were assembled in such number; which would account for fairs being notable in socialist/progressive political circles.
perhaps this is as much as we can hope for? occupying land and partying by force (if only force of numbers) has already been done – for 15 years – the ultimate result has been irate locals and the TSG cops being deployed more often and more rigs being confiscated.
There are still obvious ethical problems such as rubbish clearance – clearing up 97% of the bags still leaves 3% of contamination; often the human waste that no-one (understandably) wants to clear up but is classed as serious contamination on a farm (it can lose the farmer grants etc)
The only glimmer of hope I can see is that the drop in farm susbsidies next year may make land managers and locals realise that low-cost music events are not so bad and could provide some extra income – but theres he obvious risk of over-commercialisation or regulation.
there is also the “community farm” project but after the exodus débacle few believe in that anymore (incidentally exodus came really close to getting our culture accepted by government, they literally fought each other at the finish line and destroyed everything seconds before winning the race) – but something like this is more likely to get the ear of country types as it shows commitment, discipline and understanding of the local area rather than mere hedonism- but it may be that exodus have already poisoned the well..
Another issue is that if the rave scene is sucessfully stoppped, it will not stem the demand for a release of energy through music, dancing and in some cases recreational substances, and will only swell the numbers binge-drinking, going to commercial clubs or worse still just hanging around streets or estates and/or taking more dangerous class A drugs (interesting that TVP report a massive increase in violence and anti-social behaviour co-incident with the zero tolerance policies on raves!!!).
raves may well be the least of many evils in society….
GL
loads to think about there
i think you’re right that we don’t have much of a bargaining position, especially as many parties are ultimately destructive
the raves that were a coming together of different communities are uncommon today IME, with loads of internal demarcation dividing people; music, cars, lifestyle, drugs, clothes, gender etc
even people who agree passionately on one thing (that raving deserves to exist) bicker at one another “we always party together in this area” “you can’t say it’s your area” etc
there are much wider social issues that you have mentioned about freedom. i believe there is a far lower tolerance for youthful excess. ‘we’ are not alone. the incresed pressure on free parties is a symptom of a general throttling of society known as ‘the middle way’
i know that some land-owners are happy for parties to happen on their land, as long as they know the crew involved, for precisely some of the reasons you mentioned (shit etc), but they are in a tiny minority
as passionately as i believe in my right to party, i don’t think we stand a flea in a windtunnels chance of getting legal status, at the moment
i know, because of my job, how hard it is to get recognition or funding for very valuable social projects (that don’t offend anybody) let alone something as contreversial as raving (although hwta the controversy is about is between someone else and the doorpost… i don’t believe the hype i guess)
I reckon the best thing to do is plan your parties well, keep it underground and try and educate others
that way you should attract less heat and be able to have fun for longer
GL
loads to think about there
but that need not be the way – the recent HDFK party was one of the most constructive things I have ever seen, and the crew even cleared up a derelict warehouse afterwards (which was already empty, insecure and trashed).
that is far too true unfortunately and the biggest threat to our scene, worse than cops, laws etc. The petty arguments destroy it from within, and often even get brewed into actual fights at parties.
Another nasty development is that “lad/macho culture” has won out over the “hippy/80s anarchist” ethos of the mid 90s; parties are often now an angry male-dominated culture where violence is becoming accepted as part of the event. In a world which is (rightly) paranoid of angry young men (who are responsible for most of the violence and terrorism worldwide) its hardly surprising this culture is now seen as a threat!
Although society has indeed become more puritanical (particularly amongst our age group) unfortunately this is hardly surprising and caused as much by our failings. Another chap on our board who is in his 30s pointed out we have had 15 years of this scene and parties still exist there has been very little social progresss.
Whilst there are some solid crews and friendships which have formed over the rave scene, we still do not (and perhaps never will?) have semi-autonomous communities with their own infrastructure, support networks and regular interaction outside the parties which a lot of people were talking about in the early 90s….
I don’t even mean hippy communes, I just mean people doing other collective stuff which isn’t just about music and drugs and maybe more socially inclusive (like setting up a cybercafé, a communal garden, an art expo or things like that)
there is also a legacy of problematic drug use and criminal behaviour (including serious crime such as domestic violence and even murder) associated with people on the scene. Many of the early rave people who “did not work with the babylon system” simply supported themselves by burglaries (including house burglaries) and thefts of motor vehicles and fuel. We can’t deny it, those of us who were about at the time all thought we’d get away with it. now we are all being collectively punished for our past sins.
Some of the DJ’s and producers from the old-skool days were simply murdered by jealous rivals. (ISTR the chap who did “Dub Wars” was one of them!)
Things are better today (most ravers work rather than steal) but violence is still a problem, particularly in stressful situations such as the dog-end of a party when people are sleep deprived and have run out of euphoriants; or long hours spent preparing parties. I’ve seen people kick off at parties many times (not major fights thankfully) – not “chavs”, people who know each other and were once friends….
IMO one reason the SE had a glut of parties which led to the crackdown was because so many crews split because of internal politics they all went their own ways but set up similar parties within a few miles of one another, hardly surprising locals thought they were being invaded!
As for the drugs, our own board shows that a high proportion of ravers do actually go on to class A addiction.
Most come through it, but only after putting themselves and their families/friends through a lot of pain, and often being a burden on society. Yet everyone has been warned that certain class A substances are very bad for you since the 1980s… and people still go off the rails..
Inall these cases its usually the conventional authorities (wider families, cops, NHS) which pick up the pieces and pay the costs. It seems that “we couldn’t check ourselves” – so the rest of society is going to do the job for us.
However it has already happened – several times – in Wales – a private party which does not disrupt the neighbours on land where the land managers permit the event to go ahead. The licensing laws are exactly the same in England and Scotland – perhaps its a cultural and geographical thing as Welsh culture values music much more than in England (where puritanism is still popular!)
Also ravers have got a very bad rep due to the “smashy smashy” crew. Friends of mine actually work on an organic farm and have also been ravers but would be wary of holding an event there for the simple reasom that people would trash the place and destroy all their positive work.
I can’t blame them for feeling this; a few years ago the local squatters provided venues but people just smashed up their homes. They were challenged on dirtycircus (forerunner to SJ) posts came up like “squatters get what they deserve, they “stole” the building to start with” I’ve known people even to attend a party just to trash the place as they have beef with the organisers… 🙁
the rave scene is no more controversial than any other form of popular music, those involved with the wider pop scene are equally dysfunctional if not more so (look at So Solid crew for instance) . but perhaps pop musicians, however hated they may be, are grudingly tolerated due to the numbers game. if successful usually end up paying 40% tax rate and contributing a fair bit to society by this means.
however I suppose this just reinforces a feeling that the market alone is the only required funding mechanism for a non-essential leisure activity.
this still remains our best strategy (coupled with ravers becoming involved in activities which provide more value to the wider community).
I would pretty well go along with the above views and it is well said.
The real Middle Age fairs were not “socialist utopias” but organised by the kings and lords as commercial enterprises and markets, and often employment agencies for servants, peasants and other muddied rabble, and such events as the sale of unwanted wives and the purchase of comely wenches for the pleasuring of the masters, whipping of strumpets at the cart tail etc.
I wouldn’t disagree with that either but I would like to clarify that merry England is never a term I would say England EVER was for at least a thousand years except to be sarcastic, and I doubt the dark ages before was much better in the merry stakes or the roman era, for some maybe but a whole society is not ok when parts are rotting and it incurs suffering on outsiders to procure its wealth.
I would like to add that fairs and gatherings are far older than medieval and there is evidence I am led to believe that places like Windmill Hill are gathering places for big meets as long ago as 5000 years.
the problem with today is that it is still a dog eat dog world, disguised as humane or civilized but it is still unbelievably savage and cruel. The monarchy and the aristocracy are nothing more than long established Gangsters. Who are still profiting from the crimes as are most if not all of the so called middle Englanders who get upset when the rabble are a nuisance but are quite happy for the lowest of their class to exist as long as they stay on the reservations and keep there heads down. They are more than happy to fight the symptoms of social problems as long as they don’t have to face up to the fact that they are part of the cause.
In my opinion the laws are needed to control us because we are all messed up by the denial of the class system with the inequality that is accepted as normal and the mixed signals that having gangsters in the highest positions of power in the land give out.
We cant have equality or security, neither can we expect rational behaviour until we are equal and we will have messed up people from the top to the bottom while we ignore this crime that is accepted as the pinnacle of success and even worshiped by most of the population.
IMO having a CLASS system is akin to RACISM but as its is acceptable or denied it sends messed up signals. This upper class is and has been involved in crimes that are amongst the worst that the world has been subjected too.
I would be very interested to see the sources for the more ancient gatherings or info about these; all the stuff I can find is far more recent – obviously libraries, universities etc were set up by the élite and the content has their spin.
I would expect many an “unsuitable” book published by someone from the rabble who learned to write was consumed by flames over the years – along with its author!
TBH I think “denial” is far too kind a word to use in the context I think you mean it.
Those who perpetuate the current social/class structures and racial divisions (IMO they are exactly the same thing!) of this nation are fully aware of what they are doing; if they could cleanse the nation of the “rabble” by the use of force – simply eliminate them – like the people of one European nation tried to do 70 years ago (and very nearly succeeded) they would happily do so.
As you mentioned, élites harrass their opponents via the law/politics or armies when required (such as in other countries) –
and younger men look at their example, simply form a mob and execute an opponent, like the black lad killed in Liverpool, the chap killed at a London free party in gang violence, or the rave promoters/producers killed out of jealousy over the years.
Many of those who “succeed” in all walks of life climb the ladder by stamping on the feet and heads of those below them; but to their annoyance most of their rivals do not dash their brains out at the bottom of the pit, but get caught up in a tattered “social safety net” such as welfare and health services.
Those in power have not yet found an effective way of completely tearing this net to pieces – although many would like to as it costs too much to maintain.
But coming back to our scene and desires – what way forward is there – does one even exist?
there’s a limited amount we can do about age-old injustices at the moment – we are trying to fight a battle with a demoralised and divided army. What globaloon and myself have also mentioned is that a class structure exists on our scene as well, which divides us and dissipates our power, whilst we fight amongst ourselves…
This is our problem, what are we going to do about it?
PS: As I upload this I’ve just seen a post that the Synergy project has been ripped off 🙁 🙁 – this shows the seriousness of the situation…
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