Does Chaos exist? Does Order exist?

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Does Chaos exist? Does Order exist?

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May 10, 2007 at 5:49 pm

#884817
1

Playground Politics

@playground-politics

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are u stoned dynamic
May 10, 2007 at 6:32 pm

#884806
1

Stevie_big_words

@stevie_big_words

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totallycai wrote:

I am determined to make free choices and face the consequences if I make the wrong decision.

the above comment relates directly to free will tho, and not determinism at all even tho u sed the two co-exist. u’ve used the word “determined”, but it doesnt relate to determinism in any way. wat u have jus claimed is that free will and determinism exist together, and then written in the above comment that u use free will..

with determism all our actions and consequences hav been determined already through an unbroken chain of events (order).

with free will we are free to make decisions (chaos).

therefore the two theories can in no way co-exist. its an oxymoron saying i’m free to make decisions, but these decisions and outcomes have already been predetermined.
May 10, 2007 at 6:55 pm

#884773
1

Clang

@clang

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Fair comment.

But part of being human is that we HAVE to make choices and if I choose to commit a crime I will be held responsible for my actions.

Nonetheless, no matter how hard I try I just can’t choose to fly unaided.

I totally believe in free will, but I also know that it has it’s limits which is why I think that chaos and order co-exist.

If you take this argument to it’s climactic logical end you will always end up staring absolute determinism in the face. I just think that there is room for free will in a determined universe.

An oldschool philosopher (I can’t remember his name) once said something along the lines of:

“Why, Lord, do you force me (determinism) to have free will (freedom)?”
May 10, 2007 at 6:58 pm

#884815
1

Digital-A

@digital-a

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i have respect for people looking for the answers which i think in most cases are unanswerable and is pointless to search for something you will not find but thats me.
May 10, 2007 at 7:11 pm

#884793
1

Raj

@raj

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‘If you find not what you seek within yourself how will you recognise it anywhere else?’
May 10, 2007 at 7:21 pm

#884816
1

Digital-A

@digital-a

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i go through life as it comes, i dont seek to find answers to questions centuries old ….
May 10, 2007 at 7:26 pm

#884807
1

Stevie_big_words

@stevie_big_words

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totallycai wrote:

But part of being human is that we HAVE to make choices and if I choose to commit a crime I will be held responsible for my actions.)

yes that is using free will..

totallycai wrote:

Nonetheless, no matter how hard I try I just can’t choose to fly unaided

no that is because flying unaided is an impossibility????!!!

totallycai wrote:

“Why, Lord, do you force me (determinism) to have free will (freedom)?”

forcing someone to do something is not determinism at all. its forcing someone to do something. like i sed determinism is a theory in which it is believed that all ur actions are already pre-determined by an unbroken chain of events. forcing someone to do something is just making someone do something. i dont no what ur gettin at there…
May 10, 2007 at 7:37 pm

#884774
1

Clang

@clang

Member
Flying unaided is just an extreme example of determinism. I can’t fly just like I can’t lift a tonne of scrap metal because my body isn’t strong enough, but I have seen other people do it. I know my limits.

The quote is from a guy talking to God (the guy/gal who determines everything if you are into that sort of thing). I guess another way of describing God’s will could be fate or destiny.

Destined to be free.
May 10, 2007 at 7:47 pm

#884808
1

Stevie_big_words

@stevie_big_words

Member
totallycai wrote:

Flying unaided is just an extreme example of determinism. I can’t fly just like I can’t lift a tonne of scrap metal because my body isn’t strong enough, but I have seen other people do it. I know my limits.

no. u can’t fly because u don’t hav wings. you can’t pick up a tonne because you aren’t strong enough. fact. it has nothing to do with determinism whatsoever.

totallycai wrote:

The quote is from a guy talking to God (the guy/gal who determines everything if you are into that sort of thing). I guess another way of describing God’s will could be fate or destiny

if ur talking about the judeo christian god then ur wrong. according to scripture he does not determine things, because we have free will because adam and eve ate from the tree of knowledge. he KNOWS everything, does not determine everything.
May 10, 2007 at 8:13 pm

#884775
1

Clang

@clang

Member
As you said:

@Stevie_big_words]Take the chaos theory for instance. if u look at a hill or a mountain u think its jus there, randomly however using maths and geography u can actually calculate how that mountain came to be there. therefore something seemingly random has in fact came about through order different things influencing and eventually causng that mountain to form over time[/QUOTE wrote:

Order in chaos.

As I said:

totallycai wrote:

But part of being human is that we HAVE to make choices and if I choose to commit a crime I will be held responsible for my actions.

Chaos in order.

I think we are basically saying the same thing, but from different sides of the fence.

Interesting debate though :crazy_diz
May 10, 2007 at 8:30 pm

#884809
1

Stevie_big_words

@stevie_big_words

Member
well yeh obviously man. u can have order in nature, and you can have free will with humanity, thats a gibbon really. wat i was gettin at in return to ur comment on “u r determined to have an apple so u take one” is that in making moral decisions u CANNOT have determinism and free will at the same time.
May 10, 2007 at 8:40 pm

#884776
1

Clang

@clang

Member
It’s difficult I’ll grant you, but it can be done.

If you decide to do something that you find morally objectionable you have broken down all of the boundaries.

Have you read “The Diceman”?
May 10, 2007 at 8:52 pm

#884810
1

Stevie_big_words

@stevie_big_words

Member
no actually i havn’t mate, although it has been recommended to me before. I do hear where your comming from, however the thing is if u do something that you feel is morally objectionable, like killing a cat; according to determinism it has already been determined that u will do this thing. According to free will u have chosen to do this thing.
surely you can’t be predetermined to do something and choose to do it in the first place?! because the whole back bone of determinism is that you have no choice. and the back bone of free will, is all about the fact that you have choice. two completely diametrically opposed concepts.
May 10, 2007 at 9:02 pm

#884777
1

Clang

@clang

Member
Stevie_big_words wrote:

two completely diametrically opposed concepts.

Or oposite ends of the same scale?

If they are exact opposites, they have some kind of relationship. Just like up is nothing more or less than a distinct lack of down – they co-exist.

Sometimes the decisions we make are more free while other decisions are more determined.
May 10, 2007 at 9:05 pm

#884799
1

SD

@sd

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*pauses and reminds himself to save this thread for future reference*
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