Does Chaos exist? Does Order exist?

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Does Chaos exist? Does Order exist?

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May 10, 2007 at 9:08 pm

#884811
1

Stevie_big_words

@stevie_big_words

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how can something be “more predetermined” are you saying that some things are predetermined and some aren’t??

fair play, yes up is nothing more or less than a distinct lack of down. however u cant put this forward in the topic of free will because we either have it, or we dont. we cant be pre determined to do somethings and some not as that would break the unbroken chain of events that makes determinism wat it is.
May 10, 2007 at 9:38 pm

#884778
1

Clang

@clang

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If we accept that basically humans run programs just like computers (info goes in, gets processed and chucked out the other end as determined actions) and we also accept that through self-hypnosis, we can change the programs within our own minds (read up on it – I highly recommend “Monsters and magical sticks, there is no such thing as hypnosis”. Just do an Amazon search) humans have the capacity to make decisions about the determined way they live their lives.

You CAN re-program your mind to work the way YOU want it to work.

This is a skill that humans have because we are aware of ourselves and we can analyse our own behaviour. If the thought to change your behaviour came from within yourself, no matter how it got there in the first place, YOU chose your own destiny.
May 10, 2007 at 9:45 pm

#884812
1

Stevie_big_words

@stevie_big_words

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totallycai wrote:

YOU chose your own destiny.

yeh, thats free will. you;ve chosen your own destiny. in no way can it be predetermined if u hav chosen it. u hav used ur free will. otherwise it would hav bin predetermined and u havn’t chosen fuck all.

with the theory of determinism ur destiny has already been decided, therefore u cannot choose ur own destiny, because it has already been chosen….
May 10, 2007 at 10:01 pm

#884779
1

Clang

@clang

Member
It’s a fair cop.

Which one do you choose then?

If you believe in freedom then you believe in chaos, pure and simple.

If you believe in determinism then you believe in order, pure and simple.

No borders.
May 10, 2007 at 10:06 pm

#884760
[deleted]

@[deleted]

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Playground Politics wrote:

are u stoned dynamic

Nooo i haven’t smoked the babylon herb in ages 🙁 l find the stuff very more-ish.

By the way, l’ve changed my name to something more humble and realistic hehe.
May 10, 2007 at 10:09 pm

#884761
[deleted]

@[deleted]

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Raj wrote:

:crazy_fre

I did read the post 😉 :flowers:

I think you create the universe as you believe it is – most people will discard the information which does not support their theories and remember what does….

It is the mind which is involved in the perception of how the world behaves and, to me, the consideration of order/chaos as regards events is the mind chattering to itself. It stops me from being truly in the moment of now if I allow it to. Many events simply are – the attempt to rationalise their why is futile and does not change the outcome of those events. They simply happened and nothing I could have done myself would have stopped them doing so.

[Not sure my self expression here is going to get the point across – let me know if it is unclear and I will have another go :wink:]

Actually l’ve just understood what you meant, very good. Living purely in the present, regardless of labels and whatnot. I think there’s a word for that philosophy, but l can’t remember it. I think it’s called Yoga? Not sure.
May 10, 2007 at 10:12 pm

#884813
1

Stevie_big_words

@stevie_big_words

Member
free will mate. no fate, no destiny just free will. i’m off but its bin real interestin chattin to u about this, i’m sittin an A level in ethics in a few weeks and one of my papers is directly on Free will and determinism so its bin cool gettin into a discussion bout it and hearin ur ideas.
May 10, 2007 at 10:17 pm

#884780
1

Clang

@clang

Member
The title for my dissertation at Uni was “Free Determinism – A Cognitive Science answer to the question of Freedom”. So likewise it has been a very interesting discussion for me too.

Good luck in your exam.

Later Days
May 10, 2007 at 10:30 pm

#884762
[deleted]

@[deleted]

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Great Steve, at least you won’t be sitting there at the exam just making stuff up that may or may not have been true, like me during my exams!

Ok, here goes:

Example 1: 3451345026982567285768946529487568347652784658436523

Example 2: 4350934590346985604895621

Example 3: 30914350915609524507

^^^ Is that chaos or order? Can you prove it either way?

And as for chaos and order living in harmony and intermingling to create the rich variety of life…

l dunno how that can happen because what’s the border between chaos and order like? Where they meet, one or the other has to stop existing.

People have made nice imgaes of mountains from fractal generators, but when you get down to it, a mountain isn’t ordered, think of the topsoil, the bumps in the sides of the mountain, the dust particles, the molecules in those dust particles, the electrons whizzing around in those molecules, and so on.

Re: Free will and determinism … l reckon they’re both true. Your left could be someone’s right, that’s the way i see free will and determinism. Maybe that’s what Chaos and Order are, as Raj actually hinted at… just points of view, perspectives on the same thing.

Example 3: 30914350915609524507 << could be Chaos, could be Order, or it could just be "30914350915609524507".
May 10, 2007 at 10:37 pm

#884763
[deleted]

@[deleted]

Guest
totallycai wrote:

The title for my dissertation at Uni was “Free Determinism – A Cognitive Science answer to the question of Freedom”.

Was that Computational Neuroscience? To create a real android you would definitely need some random number generator at the core of its circuits, something that generates Chaos. Or generates Order. I dunno which of the 2, l suppose you can’t tell if it was Chaos or Order until the android’s dead and the sequence has stopped generating …
May 10, 2007 at 10:46 pm

#884796
1

MisterDuck

@misterduck

Member
i’m not on nearly enough psychedelic drugs to even contemplate an answer to that :laugh_at:
May 11, 2007 at 9:12 am

#884814
1

Stevie_big_words

@stevie_big_words

Member
totallycai wrote:

The title for my dissertation at Uni was “Free Determinism – A Cognitive Science answer to the question of Freedom”

fucking hell mate, then it certainly has bin good practice for me! ethical sparring! :weee:
May 11, 2007 at 10:14 am

#884794
1

Raj

@raj

Member
Space Master wrote:

Actually l’ve just understood what you meant, very good. Living purely in the present, regardless of labels and whatnot. I think there’s a word for that philosophy, but l can’t remember it. I think it’s called Yoga? Not sure.

Zen is what most people call it :flowers:
May 13, 2007 at 10:09 am

#884781
1

Clang

@clang

Member
Hi SpaceMaster, sorry we hijacked your thread. I have been thinking about this for a couple of days and have decided to post one more time to try to explain what the fuck I was going on about…

Space Master wrote:

Re: Free will and determinism … l reckon they’re both true. Your left could be someone’s right, that’s the way i see free will and determinism. Maybe that’s what Chaos and Order are, as Raj actually hinted at… just points of view, perspectives on the same thing.

You hit the nail right on the head – this is called Relativity theory and it basically states “different strokes for different folks” and it came about because light can be measured as BOTH waves AND particles (eventually some clever person suggested we should call them waveicles). The reason I started talking about free will/determinism is because it is a handy metaphor for order/chaos (Free will is like a small part of chaos in an otherwise ordered universe).

I guess I was trying to make the point that BOTH order and chaos really exist. It doesn’t just have to be one or the other (even if this does mean there are borders where the worlds colide, it doesn’t mean the end of the ordered/chaotic universe).

At this point I also wanted to bring Quantum Theory into the debate – When you get right down to it, the bits that make up the universe cannot be measured in the same way we measure the rest of the universe, they are not DEFINITELY here or DEFINITELY there, instead they have a tendancy to exist (or they probably exist here, but they might exist there).

If you apply this to Order/Chaos then order probably exists here, and chaos probably exists there. No positive, definite, black/white answer, just a probability, and if each one is just as likely to exist, then the best way to describe them is to say they both exist… in the same location… at the same time… probably! – just a beautiful merging of two classically oposed ideas. The border between them must look something like a K-Hole on Acid (blank but colourful, a gradual merging of probabilities/possibilities into the perceived ordered/chaotic universe). I think I saw it once, but it was probably just my interpretation of the situation.

Raj wrote:

Zen is what most people call it :flowers:

If you don’t believe me read “The Tao of Physics” – it’s a doozzy!

Hope this clears up the question for you. :crazy:

PS My degree was in Cognitive Science, but you are right to say “Computational Neuroscience” which was certainly a major part of it because I wanted to learn more about my more psychedelic experiences.
May 13, 2007 at 1:09 pm

#884821
1

Bogey

@bogey

Member
have you seen film called what the bleep
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