"Free" energy theory

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"Free" energy theory

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June 14, 2012 at 3:38 pm

#698931
1

Pat McDonald

@pat-mcdonald

Participant
This is NOT an idea for a perpetual motion machine, or a breach of the laws of thermodynamics.

Current view on using an electric motor driving the power shaft of a generator/alternator is that, due to losses, the motor will never be able to supply the needs of the alternator.

Interesting fact; depends on whether or not the materials and size of the altternator are the same as the motor.

So, say you are using copper windings for the motor. Say it takes 200W to spin up 6KG load to 2,000 RPM (conventional bench grinder).

You take off the grinding wheels and fit a large (2 maybe) pulley wheels. The pulleys drive a band which is on a small pulley wheel on the shaft of a car alternator.

The windings on the car alternator (say 16,000 RPM, 80A at 12V) are not made of copper, but a much better conductor/density material such as silver or aluminium.

Assuming the system is allowed time to spin up the alternator via the motor (200 W invertor and a car battery) would the increased generation efficiency of the better conduction/mass ratio of the aluminium give a 30% “free” energy output?

It’s not a perpetual motion machine because eventually the split rings of the alternator will give out.

Not my idea by the way. Guy called Duckman reckons he has a working model.
June 14, 2012 at 4:05 pm

#955908
1

cheeseweasel

@cheeseweasel

Participant
So you’re using the fact that the alternator is made from lighter, superior materials to the motor as a way of increasing the motor’s efficiency? Why not use a better motor in the first place?

I’m not much of an electrical engineer by the way, so I may well be missing something.
June 14, 2012 at 4:13 pm

#955911
1

Pat McDonald

@pat-mcdonald

Participant
The alternator windings have a better mass/conductance ratio, so in theory will require less energy to move them than the motor takes to spin the shaft.

It’s a cascade effect. The motor on a bench grinder is about 92% efficient anyway, so using a more efficient one isn’t an option.

Building a very bulky (but comparatively light) alternator strikes me as the key. Building them out of recycled materials like aluminium cans seems like more economically viable than expensive silver.

Ah fuck it, proof is in the pudding. I’ll give it a whirl and get back to you.

But, would take a bench grinder/car alternator combination, then using that to drive a 600W motor / home made aluminium alternator to give a viable domestic output – say 4KW continuous load, easily enough for a small ring main/viable outdoor eco generator that would be continuous (no fuel required).
June 14, 2012 at 4:37 pm

#955909
1

cheeseweasel

@cheeseweasel

Participant
So it’s kind of analogous to the turbo on a car? Just seems to me that attaching an alternator to the motor would reduce the amount of useful work the motor could do, as the alternator is effectively a mechanical resistance (the faster you spin it, the more difficult it gets to spin). I’d have thought the national grid would have cottoned on to this idea long ago if it worked.

Dunno, as I said I’m not really brainy enough to think this through properly but the words ‘free lunch’ come to mind.
June 14, 2012 at 6:27 pm

#955915
1

sungazer

@sungazer

Member
There’s nothing to think about – it won’t work. Belief in the sanctity of the laws of thermodynamics is about as close to ‘faith’ as science ever gets.
June 14, 2012 at 6:53 pm

#955910
1

Garoldeep Singh

@garoldeep-singh

Member
A alternator doesn’t generate enough torque to provide additional power/’umph’. The only thing it can do it spinn at 15,000 – 25,000 rpm depending on its application ie, a 990cc V5 Honda RC211V needs a slave motor to get running, the thing has to spin at 5000rpm to get the engine to live, said engine idles at 4,800rpm hence the the sound of over run and fuel being dumped in the exhaust when its ‘kicked’ into life. The average car alternator doesn’t have enough juice to do much, other than turn a crank that has help from the starter motor.
June 15, 2012 at 12:55 pm

#955912
1

Pat McDonald

@pat-mcdonald

Participant
@cheeseweasel 483745 wrote:

So it’s kind of analogous to the turbo on a car? Just seems to me that attaching an alternator to the motor would reduce the amount of useful work the motor could do, as the alternator is effectively a mechanical resistance (the faster you spin it, the more difficult it gets to spin).

Not exactly. The way alternators work is, the DC current fed to the moving rotor is adjusted so that as the unit spins faster, less current is fed to the coils. Some alternators are wired so that the initial spinning is fed to the internal DC rotors – until the alternator is spinning fast enough, it consumes energy. At the point that it produces enough energy (AC from the non-moving coils, fed through regulator 4 diode bridges to produce DC) it becomes a DC generator.

@cheeseweasel 483745 wrote:

I’d have thought the national grid would have cottoned on to this idea long ago if it worked.

Who needs a national grid or electricity bills if the idea is practical and widely disseminated?

@cheeseweasel 483745 wrote:

Dunno, as I said I’m not really brainy enough to think this through properly but the words ‘free lunch’ come to mind.

EXACTLY.
June 15, 2012 at 1:00 pm

#955913
1

Pat McDonald

@pat-mcdonald

Participant
@NN~Gazatryptamine 483772 wrote:

A alternator doesn’t generate enough torque to provide additional power/’umph’. The only thing it can do it spinn at 15,000 – 25,000 rpm depending on its application ie, a 990cc V5 Honda RC211V needs a slave motor to get running, the thing has to spin at 5000rpm to get the engine to live, said engine idles at 4,800rpm hence the the sound of over run and fuel being dumped in the exhaust when its ‘kicked’ into life. [/quote]

That’s why it needs an 8:1 pulley ratio. The alternator has to spin at a fast enough speed, brought up to that speed slowly enough not to give too much friction on the pulley belt.

@NN~Gazatryptamine 483772 wrote:

The average car alternator doesn’t have enough juice to do much, other than turn a crank that has help from the starter motor.

This is a factor. 1960’s alternators only gave about 30Amps at 12V. However with modern audio systems, air conditioning, sat nav and other gadgets, current models can frequencly give between 70A to 110A (marine alternators are bigger still, and for some “unfathomable” reason, alternators are not usually fitted to large heavy goods vehicles….)
June 15, 2012 at 1:02 pm

#955914
1

Pat McDonald

@pat-mcdonald

Participant
@sungazer 483761 wrote:

There’s nothing to think about – it won’t work. Belief in the sanctity of the laws of thermodynamics is about as close to ‘faith’ as science ever gets.

Unproven faith is just as much ignorance from a “scientific” believer as from any other type of believer.

Skeptics do not judge until the evidence has been evaluated. Debunkers will not believe even when evidence is presented, as their beleif system is under threat, and people respond badly to potential threats (first instinct is always to self preservation).
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