I have moved this answer from the freeparty section.
Pel View sounds like a name of a house, I just hope it dosent turn into Dun Partying.
I think its a important question that has been asked if you weren’t aware or the last twelve months PEL actions, its an important area for any party to consider I believe points need considering and I am in no way advising anyone to break the law as I believe we can act within the law, we can but only try with good conscience. I am not suggesting that parties be private so people can get around paying a licience, there is nothing wrong with liking parties but they must be private for friends and guests, for the sake of fun not profit, if you want to have any defence against this law it has to be clearly private, or at least we need to be in a position to argue that,
this law has been brought in not just to attack us it applys to a tea party, house party, barn party, unlicenced events like fetes pubs not paying their entertainments licence and selling booze various laws apply if the public are involved. So we need to be aware that we have been lax in our behavior as a whole and drawing back to the underground(private) to friends and guests will bring a little natural downsizing not a bad thing for several reasons and to be fair we have pushed our rights to the limits in a crowded island full of haves and have nots. I don’t see how you can defend against the amendments to the new law except by keeping the party private, not for the public, not advertised in the public domain, not done for profit, or to sell booze.
I am not saying we cant talk about parties, neither does the law stipulate how we invite people, except it must not be publicly. it also says that they must not be done for the public. they must not be done for profit, it does not say cant get donations but you may have to prove that point. the weight of this law is as understand it different to normal criminal law and in some areas instead of them proving you are guilty you may have to prove you are innocent. there is an exception to the party making it in to the public domain, but you have to prove you took all posible means to insure it didnt. not an easy way and I wouldnty rely on that. remember that this is all my view and interpretation. please in no way rely on it and check for yourself, you will find if you talk to solisitors that very few know much about this area at the moment.
After the PEL amendments roll in very soon, any rig or equipment owner or DJ at any party big or small that was advertised publicly is automatically assumed to be an organizer or part of the management. It would take little effort to collect this information, no arrests need be made, no confrontation as they can get address’s from plates or helicopter.. just a letter in the post, no one defending the rig, no convoy out, just you alone with a summons.
Even if you don’t advertise it may not stop you being taken to court but it must help you.
Recent history and update as asked for by toast
Interesting thread and thanks to GL for the social history lesson 😉
I knew PEL was having an effect but didnt realise there were so many prosecutions going on – you mentioned like ten or something.
RE: QUOTE: “Friends who have never been in trouble with the law before have had this happen for the first time, and it has increased their stress levels and also affected their relationship with their partners and families… sadly the so called “rave community” doesn’t always give you the support you would expect (such as whip rounds to help people pay fines etc)…”
While i can dig the need /desire to keep certain details of cases off the net – or not discuss them on open forums where people will just add extra info / speculations which will no doubt be pretty useful to the authorities… It would be useful to at least have some static page somewhere updating people on what’s going on in this area…
Though obviously it’s a bit of a fine line cos you don’t want to go publishing stuff that in effect says hey authorities look – yer newer tactics are being successful…
At least some of the stuff with czechtek and the utah bust has shown that there is at least some senses of solidarity in europe and beyond – if pple know more what was going on then support whether that be whip rounds or just moral support would be more forthcoming.
it should all be on partyvibe somewhere and I think I have already posted in the thread this was moved from about what is happening, but to recap the odd PEL prosecution takes place but because of the test case’s back in 92ish summons’s are few and far between but not unknown, the test case’s showed that it is hard to prove, ( they never had the internet them so parties were never advertised in the public domain) Just because you have a rig it doesn’t mean you are the organizer of a party, you may have been hired or merely just asked over the phone and never even met the said organizer. Which is why the law has been amended but that’s not law at the moment it will be in a couple of months which is why I have brought it up again because we need to get our acts tight to await new test cases. But you can see by DJ VU’s reaction people are calling it politics bollerks already fed up with it, but his reply was possible aggravated by others getting at him on another forum, nevertheless he should have been taking a little more care (PELaware).
Last year at beacon hill Hampshire nr Newbury Those rigs and people that left the party by the main entrance gave voluntary video evidence to the police and most gave statements some admitting that it was a public party(which it wasn’t) about ten people(rigs and dj’s) received summons, for PEL violations. Now the duke of Carmarthen who we now know owns that land was mentioned in the evidence and I believe it was his powerful influence that led the police to intervene in this way and the local authority to take measures they wouldn’t normally follow, for reasons I have already given. As far as I am aware none of these fellows were organizers but the nature of this type of trial and their lack of understanding of this hardly used on us law led to them after several pre-trial hearings of brow beatings and bad advice, to all but one of them pleaded guilty, the case was dropped for the one that didn’t as I understand.
At the heart of the evidence was the mention of the party on the internet, and some people who should of known better admitting iot was a party for the public, the name freeparty was coined to differentiate them from pay parties to avoid PEL originally, also they were presented the law in a way that led them to believe they were guilty under it.
A while later the Wokingham party where the rigs were taken under sec 63 of which they have dropped for most people there, they held the rigs as evidence passed it to the council and have asked for them to be destroyed under PEL., again at the center of this evidence is the net . They have to date been to I think four hearings the next I think on November the 3rd not sure if that’s the correct date but I can find out. They have not had much support, it has been costly for them and I believe that it is only because they have all pleaded not guilty that more case’s have not been brought this side of the amendments. We owe them a lot and they are the forgotten heros allowing others to carry on advertising like dj vu. A worry with PEL is there need be no OB involvement and a summons can come up to as I understand it 6 months later. I would assume that they are waiting now until the amendments come in before they bring more cases which is why we need to make all efforts to take the parties out of the public domain. Not many members of the public come to parties if any even though they are on the internet so its no loss and without a charter or some such legal order giving us the right to gather on certain occasions. its irresponsible to invite the public unless you have a licence and the necessary health and safety measures in place.
on the other hand if a large number of rigs go down in test cases,if that heralded a massive drop in parties even a stand still, the momentum of nothing to lose may drive them with help into showcase appeals, a joining in large numbers to the europeon movement to get some rights to gather, something on the lines of a proper free festival with bands, acts, and rave. I could live with that freedom returned.
thanks elraveon – its is a long and complicated subject but everyone needs to read the “bad” news and the long posts with big words if they wish to keep on partying.
a few pointers and clarifications – PEL laws are criminal laws – but they are summary rather than indictable. but there are other non-criminal law sanctions used against rave crews which I will explain below.
Indictable offences are “obvious” crime like like if you punched or stabbed someone in the street or blatantly stole something from a store – if a cop sees you or CCTV evidence is there you’d be nicked straight away because the proof of guilt is there – the stolen item, the blood on the street, the injured party or body in the ambulance. its readily apparent a common law has been broken.
Summary offences like PEL are ones where authorities must gather evidence that the crime was committed and convince a Magistrate to issue a summons to you to appear before Court; this requires a greater body of evidence as they are laws where the crime is not altogether obvious.
NB: Cops will often arrest those identifiable as “organisers” of raves on suspicion of indictable offences, notably criminal damage, burglary, abstracting electricity or CJA offences. They will then pass evidence gathered at interview to CPS lawyers who may also try to get a summons for a PEL prosecution, and assist the building or site owners with attempting a civil action (heard in a County Court) to recover costs of damages. You can no longer go to prison if a civil judgement is made against you, but private detectives will try and trace you and will check your bank accounts and any financial agreements for cars etc, your posessions may be seized by bailiffs to recover any costs and you can be made bankrupt.
Both types offences are tried in a Magistrates Court or a Crown Court depending how far the local authorities wish to take things.
For PEL maximum penalties include prison; and even if you only get a fine its a real criminal conviction that will result in your name and adresss often being printed in the local rag and you will you have to declare for job applications, travelling etc and it can affect you for the rest of your life.
Its actually seen as “worse” than being done for drugs etc (which is often just a caution) by wider society. Many people take drugs but “grow out of it” and are forgiven – but stuff like license violations are perceived to be a form of dishonesty – you dared to defraud the “public purse” by holding a public event without paying the application fee and license fee to the council. Its not easy to get jobs in places like financial services or IT departments (which often purchase equipment and services worth millions) if your card is marked for “dishonesty”.
Although I’m not a qualified legal eagle I confirm all this stuff has been obtained from a combination of official sources (the laws and penalties are public record from the Office Of Public Sector Information (formerly HMSO)) and those details of real things that have happened to real people I know that I can safely divulge in public.
its all heavy and harsh but crews have got to wise up now if they wish to keep partying… and things did get a bit out of hand during the excesses of the dot-com boom times and the early 21st century
its a backlash from the rest of the peasantry angered at the racket we made and the mess we left behind (including the addicted people and broken families) as much as the ten lords a-whinging….
the only light at the end of the tunnel is the possibility if that the “new underground” raves atrract a determined community on a non-profit tip justdoing it for fun rather than money or ego, this whole law may backfire like the CJA did 10 years ago – bringing people together instead of pushing them apart….
sterling work, both of you. personally, while i thank you for the advice, i do raves for the public, and im quite willing to take that calculated risk. im just not interested in putting on parties for mates of the rig etc, because to be honest, to me that would be worse than going to jail.
letting them win, rolling over and dying. fuck that. i have never made a profit at a party, nor do i want to, what i want is to be able to enjoy the great outdoors to the soundtrack of my choosing, and to invite all and sundry to join me, i see it as an absolute right as a native of this land. i know you are both going to say im being obtuse and foolish, but some things are worth fighting for, even if you cant win.
letting them win, rolling over and dying. fuck that. i have never made a profit at a party, nor do i want to, what i want is to be able to enjoy the great outdoors to the soundtrack of my choosing, and to invite all and sundry to join me, i see it as an absolute right as a native of this land. i know you are both going to say im being obtuse and foolish, but some things are worth fighting for, even if you cant win.
unfortunately the system is always ready for the stubborn bastards – and will be even more stubborn. Prison is full of people who thought they were “above the law” – our local one have had quite a few of my schoolmates who thought they could get away with a bit of crime. We may not see it as crime but the rest of society does.
Everyone thinks they can handle prison – until that door slams shut.
In old skool days people regularly did get done for PEL or other rave related stuff (what usually happened is they got turned over with stacks of drugs as well so they got done for loads of stuff!) and people go to HMP even now because of raves as they have been caught with drugs etc (lets face it if it weren’t for drugs this scene would have died ages ago anyway….)
most people do time, but their names and deeds are forgotten and laws just got beefed up anyway – like most “activists” in this country they achieve nothing and whilst they were in their so-called best mates are fucking their girlfriends and carrying on as if nothing had happened.
You may think your friends and everyone will be “behind you” but when it comes to the crunch and you need work/money/whatever its often the case no one wants to help; they’ve all “grown up” and “sorted themselves out” with jobs/partners etc – and you’re just an ex-con – another “surplus person” whom no one cares about…. this kind of shit happened to a lot of the “heads” from my original rave days as they all ended up in HMP at least once.
the other danger is that “political correctness” ends at the prison door.
They will probably try and put you in with some knuckle dragging BNP football hooligan to “sort you out” that way. However, you are probably unlikely to be able to keep your “hippy” hairstyle because of the paranoia over nits so and you are quite tall – it would be worth looking like a football hooligan but acting like a decent bloke of course..
If you make friends with him instead of fighting, the screws will fuck you over in various other ways like making sure you do not get to do things you want to like art/IT etc – or transferring you to prisons the other side of the country which definitely doesn’t do the course you want, “losing” your papers that allow your parents/girlfriend to visit you – they’ll find an excuse to put you on full 23 hour bang up etc until you go mad or even try to top yourself…
you’re not allowed internet in prison, the library is censored – so you won’t be able to spread the word here. Most cons are just after doing their time rather than getting involved in “leftie politics” so you won’t be able to spread the word inside.
I doubt you’d get a long stretch though you’ll be in prison “close” to your home area (which may even be Belmarsh!); there’ll always be a snide screw to tell a potential employer “watch out for him, he was in for organising illegal drugs parties where 12 year olds got sold crack” – all word of mouth as well so you just don’t get any interviews etc but you don’t know what happend
you’ll maybe get treated worse than a nonce because you dared buck the system, not even doing normal crime… I’ve got a few mates who’ve been in HMP and seen this shit happen, those who go in for “political” stuff sometimes don’t get a lot of respect (although it depends on the prison)
Its not letting “them” win if free parties are altered somewhat.
It will be a victory for them though if good people like you who try to be too stubborn end up getting broken by the system and are lost to the scene. A lot of them already have been, some of them are people I know which is why I wouldn’t advise foolhardiness.
(this country doesn’t really assasinate people (its usually a fuckup if it happens like that brazillian chap on the tube) but is very good at breaking them to the point many take their lives by their own hands. Its an accepted way of dealing with criminals in HMP, both the screws and the other inmates try breaking people as part of the ever present power-struggles… ever wondered why the prison suicide rate is so high here?)
This is a public website – but those who are interested can use it to find out “how to be invited to these parties” if you see what I mean and they aren’t all close friends of all the rigs that operate these days…
I do feel particularly with recent events in London you will actually have to be a bit elitst now about who you let know about parties anyway because of the contstant threat of violence and gang / crack culture – this is way stronger than rave culture nowadays even in my city which used to be OK. Kids who would have been partying 7 years ago run crackhouses now…
If the authorities don’t finish off the remaining large parties by the law, the eventual gunshots will.
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