i know this is old news already, but when i saw it in the papers, i assumed that the bloke had been a suicide bomber because noone was pointing out that he was innocent, just that he had been shot, as if the police did something good. i now realise that his crime was not being white enough, and being scared when our coppers opened fire.
[quote=bbc]
The police marksman’s dilemma
By Chris Summers BBC News website |
Scotland Yard’s admission that an innocent man, Brazilian electrician Jean Charles de Menezes, was shot dead on Friday by plain-clothed police searching for the 21 July London bombers has focused attention on the record of British firearms officers.
Jean Charles de Menezes was not the first person to die by mistake at the hands of UK armed police.
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His death, which came amid heightened tension caused by a string of bomb attacks on London by Islamic extremists, is the latest in a long line of controversies involving firearms officers.
Only a month ago two Metropolitan Police officers were arrested by detectives investigating the fatal shooting of Scottish-born Harry Stanley in Hackney, east London, in 1999.
Family and friends of Mr Stanley have been campaigning for the officers who shot him to face a criminal trial. There have been two inquests and two judicial reviews during the saga.
In November 2004 members of SO19, the Met’s firearms unit, staged an unofficial strike in protest after two officers were suspended following the second inquest.
The Stanley case revolved around the question of whether the officers had acted correctly in shooting the 46-year-old.
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Shot by mistake![]() 14 Jan 1983: Stephen Waldorf (survived), Kensington, west London 15 Jan 1998: James Ashley, St Leonards, East Sussex (above) 22 Sep 1999: Harry Stanley, Hackney, east London |
They claimed they shouted: “Stop, armed police” and fired when Mr Stanley turned around while carrying a bag which they believed contained a gun. In fact it only contained a table leg.
Most police forces in the UK supply their firearms units with rules of engagement based on guidelines from the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo).
These state that they:
Mr Waldorf was shot five times but survived after being fired at by police officers who were on the trail of a dangerous escaped prisoner called David Martin. Mistaken identity The confusion apparently arose because police mistook Mr Waldorf for Mr Martin, partly because they both had long hair and partly because Mr Waldorf was accompanied by Mr Martin’s girlfriend Sue Stephens. Two officers were eventually acquitted of attempted murder in connection with the Waldorf case. Lessons were learnt and the Acpo guidelines were drawn up in an attempt to prevent a repetition. Fifteen years later Sussex Police officers were criticised after they shot dead a man called James Ashley as he lay naked in bed with his girlfriend. ‘Five shots’ Three senior police officers were cleared in 2001 of any wrongdoing in the raid, but the circumstances surrounding the shooting led to the resignation of Sussex Chief Constable Paul Whitehouse. And only last month the family of Derek Bennett, shot dead by police in July 2001 in Brixton, south London, after he was seen brandishing a cigarette lighter shaped like a gun, won the right to challenge the inquest verdict that he had been lawfully killed. After the suicide bomb attacks in London on 7 July it is thought the Met’s Anti-Terrorist Branch implemented its own pre-arranged response to suicide bombers, based on Acpo advice.
Codenamed Operation Kratos, and based on the experiences of the Israeli security forces, the guidance reportedly states that an officer can shoot a suspect in the head if it is thought he is a suicide bomber who poses an imminent danger to police or the public. Eyewitnesses at Stockwell station on Friday said they saw police officers fire five shots into the head of the suspect. If Operation Kratos is being used, it would be the first time a shoot-to-kill policy was officially allowed on British streets. Killed by SAS Sinn Fein has long claimed the SAS and other British Army units used a shoot-to-kill policy against IRA members in Northern Ireland. Among the cases highlighted are the 1992 shooting of four IRA men – Kevin O’Donnell, Patrick Vincent, Sean O’Farrell and Peter Clancy – in Clonoe, County Tyrone. Three others – Peter Ryan, Tony Doris and Lawrence McNally – were killed in Coagh, County Tyrone, in June 1991 when SAS soldiers fired around 200 shots into the stolen car in which they were travelling. Shoot-to-kill was also said to have been used by the SAS in Gibraltar in 1988 on three IRA suspects. An inquest into the incident held on Gibraltar returned a verdict of lawful killing but the European Court of Justice verdict ruled that British soldiers violated the fundamental right to life of the three IRA members. Many policing experts claim the threat posed by suicide bombers today is so much more serious than the danger from the Provisional IRA in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s that a shoot-to-kill policy is obligatory. Former Scotland Yard commander Roy Ramm told the BBC: “Generally speaking police officers have been taught to aim at the largest target on the body, which is the torso and that has worked well.
“People have died but others – robbers and drug dealers – have lived. “The problem with the police continuing with that strategy is that if a round enters the body of a suicide bomber it could detonate the charge, probably killing the person wearing it, the police officers and anyone else who is close to the suspect. “That leaves no option for the police but to take head shots. Almost invariably a shot to the head will kill. In a sense it is a shoot-to-kill policy, but by practice rather than design.” But the death of Mr Menezes shows the tragic consequences which can lead from such a policy and there may now have to be a rethink by Scotland Yard. Quote:
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i only saw this after I was away from a net connection – and wanted to check all the sources I could find before saying anything….
its the one of the worst consequences that could have happened in the UK as a follow-up to 7/7, although I’d class it more as a mixture of ignorance, incompetence (on the part of authorities) and blind panic…
A Brazillian chap leaves a rough slum area in Brazil (where corrupt cops regularly execute people on the street, There are also vigilanté execution squads, and people get jacked all the time (not too different from some parts of London today…..)
he does not know much English, and moves to an area where locals are also fairly suspicious of the Police – and of each other, and there is racial tension. he had also overstayed his visa – and thus was made even more paranoid of the authorities…..
The armed cop who fired the shots would possibly only have known of person as “Target A” – not much else apart from roughly what he looked like, and where he would be when the operation happened,
Even if he had been told more he’d just take is senior officers or intelligence sources word for it that the target was a suicide bomber suspect and had to be dealt with. He would have had to do the same had he been told the target was white (if only for the cops own potential self-preservation).
TBH Had I had been put in the same situation as the cop, with a gun in my hand and the target in front of me and thought he did have the potential to detonate a bomb, I would have done exactly the same and pulled the trigger, and fired multiple head shots. One or two bullets may not always kill quickly enough to stop someone setting a detonator off..
( i have in fact looked at some of the pyschometric tests used to select armed cops and my own personality would be too volatile to do such a job, I would start shooting far too early in those sorts of situations!)
the real failings are at the senior officers and intelligence services levels…
other reports mentioned the guy was under surveillance.
One good question is why if cops were following him, and had enough evidence to suspect he had a device, did they let him get as far as the tube station with a potenial IED on him? Why increase the risk to bystanders…
even worse, if he had any connection with bombers whatsoever (even if he just lived in the same house or area which is what is being alleged), the cops have just killed a vital source of intelligence, and probably frightened the shit out of anyone else in that area who might have considered coming forward with info..
and whilst all this shit is going on, real bombers have got away, they may have more bombs…..
not sure though if there’s any easy solution.
there is an increasing threat from suicide bombers, who are not just “foreign terrorists”. In the last two years there have been white Europeans in EU countries who have carried out suicide bombings in their own cities, just out of hate and anger…
this could have happened anywhere in the current world climate, and is probably so commonplace it wouldn’t even have made front page news in other countries of the world where cops routinely carry guns and shoot to kill….
but for Britain this is the worst-case scenario… but perhaps its the reality of war – innocents on all sides keep on getting killed, and now the war is coming home..
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