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  • how would you think change could be achieved? do people still hold faith in change through politics and peaceful protests, or is more direct action nearer the mark, i.e. mass riots?

    i dunno, i’m optimistic that politics can still change summat, but its gettin less likely imo…

    Hell of a question boothy

    Think it depends on what you’re talking about.

    I’m all for peaceful protest, but only from years of experience (of having done both), I think peacful protest can move mountains.

    On the otherhand if someone’s coming at me with an ouzi I’m gonna be a bit f****d so . . . hmmmmmmm

    the thing is with riots is that particularly when they kick off in poorer areas they end up destroying the wrong peoples infrastructure and lives (its local businesses and local peoples cars that usually end up being torched)

    Not everyone has the full insurance for these things, and then for those who do their premiums get increased as the area is classed as “violent”

    then the authorities after they have “restored order” just leave people to live in the ashes of their communities and the criminals/violent people are the only ones who win..

    this is what happened in London when I was younger, South London (where I was born and brought up and where many riots happened in the 70s and 80s) isn’t exactly a socialist utopian paradise today.

    In foreign countries where the “left wing” people “stand up for themsevles” more (France and Italy are often quoted as examples) there is a harsher resistance from the right – as well as Police there are Gendarmes and other armed paramilitaries, as well as right-wing groups fighting back against squatters, often even with firearms and IEDs!

    The only way to get away from the system a bit in Britain is to create self-sufficient communities of your own, but that involves a bit more discipline and hard work.

    Its not so much what the system makes you do but stuff like the graft involved in pooling resources and sharing effort fairly – constructing buildings and growing food etc.

    A lot of people although they claim to be “alternative” just don’t want to put in this collective effort – particularly when they can still just work in a call centre or insurance company, or when drugs provide an easy (if temporary) escape.

    General Lighting wrote:
    the thing is with riots is that particularly when they kick off in poorer areas they end up destroying the wrong peoples infrastructure and lives (its local businesses and local peoples cars that usually end up being torched)

    Not everyone has the full insurance for these things, and then for those who do their premiums get increased as the area is classed as “violent”

    then the authorities after they have “restored order” just leave people to live in the ashes of their communities and the criminals/violent people are the only ones who win..

    this is what happened in London when I was younger, South London (where I was born and brought up and where many riots happened in the 70s and 80s) isn’t exactly a socialist utopian paradise today.

    In foreign countries where the “left wing” people “stand up for themsevles” more (France and Italy are often quoted as examples) there is a harsher resistance from the right – as well as Police there are Gendarmes and other armed paramilitaries, as well as right-wing groups fighting back against squatters, often even with firearms and IEDs!

    The only way to get away from the system a bit in Britain is to create self-sufficient communities of your own, but that involves a bit more discipline and hard work.

    Its not so much what the system makes you do but stuff like the graft involved in pooling resources and sharing effort fairly – constructing buildings and growing food etc.

    A lot of people although they claim to be “alternative” just don’t want to put in this collective effort – particularly when they can still just work in a call centre or insurance company, or when drugs provide an easy (if temporary) escape.

    Well said

    rioting doesn’t achieve anything. it used to in France, but it doesn’t even work there any more. Peaceful protest on a large scale also used to cause some change, but apart from raising awareness, it has no impact any more (2 million + people demonstration against Iraq etc). democracy doesn’t really exist where there is party politics and elections every four or five years to cover every major issue that may arise in that time

    as GL says, you can try to live completely outside the system, although unless you get the proper planning permissions and pay your council tax, you’re likely to get evicted from your own land.

    what kind of social change are you thinking of, boothy? give us an example

    globalloon wrote:
    what kind of social change are you thinking of, boothy? give us an example

    social change like… stopping the surveillance society, opposing so-called “terrorism” acts, blocking the increased police “stop+question” powers, stopping the fall of society into a fixed system, which is already happenin imo

    boothy wrote:
    social change like… stopping the surveillance society, opposing so-called “terrorism” acts, blocking the increased police “stop+question” powers, stopping the fall of society into a fixed system, which is already happenin imo

    if it’s not already too late… try studying law and history and use your knowledge to educate others about the dangers of the path we’re on and how hard won our ever diminishing freedoms were

    the only way to challenge these symptoms are through ‘the system’

    i’m not academically clever enough to study law unfortunately, probably not history either

    can things still be changed through music?

    boothy wrote:
    i’m not academically clever enough to study law unfortunately, probably not history either

    can things still be changed through music?

    :biggreen:

    we always need inspiring music to act as an outlet for all the frustration we feel

    but please, don’t ever tell yourself you’re aren’t good enough to do something… ‘law’ is just a coded language designed to keep ‘common’ people away from decision-making and make a few people very rich, crack the code and it’s fairly simple. you don’t need to go to university to study something.. it’s all at your fingertips 😉

    globalloon wrote:
    we always need inspiring music to act as an outlet for all the frustration we feel

    there was something on that Resurgence magazine pahe about how music and art are as spiritually vital to our existence as other kinds of graft such as agriculture, engineering/science and manufacturing

    globalloon wrote:
    :biggreen:

    you don’t need to go to university to study something.. it’s all at your fingertips 😉

    most of the skills I use today were not learned in school, college or uni..

    there is a load of accurate British history info on the Internet, particularly covering the periods from World War II onwards, much of it contributed by the older people who are now retired and have spare time and a computer (“silver surfers”).

    If you use Google you will probably find links to many local history websites for your region as well, if not try the public library – assuming this isn’t under water at the moment and that your librarians aren’t currently doing the admin for the rescue centres (which is what many of them are redeployed to do when there is a local emergency).

    General Lighting wrote:
    there was something on that Resurgence magazine pahe about how music and art are as spiritually vital to our existence as other kinds of graft such as agriculture, engineering/science and manufacturing

    this one?

    To meet the challenge of global warming, we need to change from being consumers to being artists; we have to take refuge in the arts and crafts. As William Morris advocated long ago, arts and crafts ignite our imagination, stimulate our creativity and bring us a sense of fulfilment. Poetry, painting, pottery, music, meditation, gardening, sculpting and umpteen other forms of arts and crafts can meet all basic human needs; produce beautiful objects to use, which need not require the use of fossil fuel. Human happiness, true prosperity and joyful living can only emerge from a life of elegant simplicity.

    We are at the point of return from gross to subtle, from glamorous to gracious, from hedonism to healing, from conquest of the Earth to conservation of Nature, and from quantities of possessions to quality of life. It is ‘cool’ to be an optimist.

    http://www.resurgence.org/2007/kumar243.htm

    the one I was thinking of it was an earlier article, but in a strange incident of serendipity I was reading that very same link you have just posted literally seconds ago!

    globalloon wrote:
    :biggreen:

    we always need inspiring music to act as an outlet for all the frustration we feel

    thats what i’d really love (and gonna aim for) to create music that means as much to others as music means to be, and music to me… just gives me hope and makes the world right… if i could contribute to that i’d be a happy man

    Quote:
    but please, don’t ever tell yourself you’re aren’t good enough to do something… ‘law’ is just a coded language designed to keep ‘common’ people away from decision-making and make a few people very rich, crack the code and it’s fairly simple. you don’t need to go to university to study something.. it’s all at your fingertips 😉

    from the academic point of view though, it was just recognition that i havent got the grades to study law or history through like, school or uni for whatever reason (well, i havent got my grades yet, but i didnt take high enough papers on some subjects)

    but i’ll try and study things other means… i’ve always learnt more outside of school anyhow :crazy_dru

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Forums Life Politics, Media & Current Events social/political/whatever change