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  • I’m sightly surprsied that there haven’t been any topics on here about the state of the british economy, given that we are closer than any other country in the world to going bankrupt… escentially following Iceland

    i don’t normally agree with much Polly Tonybee has to say but with this article she is absolutely bang on

    Owners must be weaned off the house-price drug

    Now is the time to be honest about what is needed to avoid another wild boom: taxes geared to discourage inflation

    Kick-starting the housing market is the urgent priority, isn’t it? The engine is dead, not even a splutter. Brown and Darling keep stamping and jump-starting, but house prices keep falling by £140 a day. Rising repossessions will feed back into the loop, accelerating the price fall. New home building is down by some two thirds, and 450,000 construction jobs may be gone by next year.

    So the government put money into preventing repossessions, and yesterday Northern Rock was reborn as a lender able to offer mortgages of up to 90%. HomeBuy Direct will soon offer mortgages to some 15,000 first-timers. It’s a start, yet only a fraction of what used to be lent. But what, exactly, is the aim? House prices are still far too high – they are only back to about 2006 levels, still crazy money. Prices need to fall further to regain any reasonable multiple of people’s incomes.

    But every time prices fall, another round of bad debts hurt the banks’ balance sheets and the taxpayer has to pump in more. The nation is still deeply dependent on house prices rising for ever. We still live in a bubble economy, with no way to live except by reinflating it. The state itself has been mainlining on the house-price drug, as addicted as the happy home-owners.

    With five million on the housing waiting lists, the state acquired much social housing by demanding that property developers add in a quota for free. Through section 106 planning agreements, developers had to build schools, GP clinics, playgrounds and roads to pay back some of the value bestowed with planning permission.

    All this, however, depended on ever-soaring house prices. If profits now return to earth, who will pay for all that infrastructure? Housing associations, councils and government depended on price inflation as much as property developers did.

    When Gordon Brown moved into No 10 promising 3m new homes to make up for Labour’s failure to build, that too depended on permanently rising prices. That explains the ambivalence about what housing policy should be now. So desperate is everyone to get the market moving that first-time buyers are rashly wooed with grants to buy homes that may ruin them if prices keep dropping.

    Please can we have our bubble back, clamours just about everyone. The 70% who own homes and those who dashed into buy-to-let property yearn for the magical unearned wealth that came from nowhere. Most people will only judge that the slump is over on the day they see prices rise again in their local estate agent’s windows. Normality returns at last! Everyone knows this fairy money caused the crisis, but since about 2003 real incomes have hardly risen, except among the top 10% of earners. House prices sustained the feelgood spending. Where, many economists ask nervously, is our growth to come from now if not in fantasy finance or property boom?

    Sober observers watching the government trying to start the dead motor of the housing market warn that once the engine catches, an uncontrollable, rocket-fuelled turbo take-off will leave them standing. Pent-up demand is high: plenty of people have money to invest if they see a chance. Property speculation is hardwired in the British brain after decades of a one-way bet – with only a few small blips. Bricks and mortar are our pensions, piggybanks, casinos, our children’s university and their first flat deposit. How do we return to regarding a home as just another commodity like saucepans?

    Revive the private rented sector, the experts say. Be like France and Germany, where most people rent for life and young families aren’t crippled with mortgage debt. But ask these same experts if they own their homes: they do. Ask if they help their children to buy and they do – with good reason. The British tax system urges us to use property as a bank, because it is barely taxed. In countries with a balanced choice between buying and renting, property is taxed the same as other investments. But not here.

    Now is the time to tell people that house prices will not be allowed to go mad again. Announce a tax to be imposed on future gains (not retrospectively). There are plenty of ways to do it. Some administrations impose an annual tax, including many US states. Some urge a land value tax system. It would be easy to impose capital gains tax on all future rises: that 18% on any inflation in value, only to be paid on selling it, could stop another bubble. The money raised could be earmarked for building social and private rented homes, or helping others to buy.

    But suggest that to politicians and they blanche at the very idea, even while agreeing that it should be done – in theory. Parties that dare not revalue the banding system for council tax – which has unchanged since 1991, letting enormous wealth escape even that modest rise – are certainly not in a mood to challenge the Englishman’s right to inflate his bouncy castle. Current pressure is all for even less tax. Property developers want to escape their section 106 planning gain obligations. Progress suggests a stamp duty holiday. Inheritance tax cuts will ensure virtually no family homes are ever taxed.

    The colossal housing shortage helps fuel BNP support. The government is trying to build, allowing councils to borrow and build again, a bit. Land is being acquired cheaply from bankrupt developers. The new Homes and Communities Agency is putting together a commercial consortium to build £1bn worth of private rented property. Northern Rock could become the national good lender bank. But none of this is enough to hold back the mighty thrust of the property market once it sets off again.

    Light the blue touch paper and this small island with huge housing need and tight planning controls will see another unsustainable boom, South Sea and tulips all over again. Almost alone in the world, our tax regime is purpose-built to inflate property. Shares, savings and pensions have taken a hard knock: bricks and mortar will still be a better bet while they are untaxed. Most people will stay both seduced and enslaved by property, while 30% have no chance of joining in, apart for ever in social housing ghettos. Ignore any politicians talking about rebalancing the housing mix between ownership and renting, unless they are willing to use tax to dampen the incentive to buy.

    polly.toynbee@guardian.co.uk

    It’s just ridiculous that this has been allowed to happen. It feels like the economy is so bad it’s taking the piss out of itself by continuing to get worse. I think the next few years are gonna be really difficult now they’ve admitted we’re in a recession, and it’s not even Thatcher we can blame this time.

    It’s the only real reason I’m staying in university. One of the safer places to be at the moment.

    globalloon;309976 wrote:
    I’m sightly surprsied that there haven’t been any topics on here about the state of the british economy,

    I know why cos it’s quite depressing really, I’d rather talk about my gnomes than the state of the British economy. :hopeless:

    @DJCliffy 309980 wrote:

    I know why cos it’s quite depressing really, I’d rather talk about my gnomes than the state of the British economy. :hopeless:

    fair enough. gnomes are a bit wank though… sat there, little concrete jokes, stay where they’re put

    this forum used to be a hot bed of ideas from people who were involved in lifestyles outside of the mainstream… those people who would be excited, rather than depressed, by the opportunities to re-shape society presented by the current economic situation

    it seems like no-one here either a) gives a fuck or b) has any ideas about how to get through the next decade or c) wants to understand why their comfortable lives are under threat and d) how to avoid it in future

    SHEEPLE

    globalloon;309982 wrote:

    SHEEPLE

    Bless you.

    globalloon;309982 wrote:
    this forum used to be a hot bed of ideas from people who were involved in lifestyles outside of the mainstream… those people who would be excited, rather than depressed, by the opportunities to re-shape society presented by the current economic situation

    it seems like no-one here either has any ideas about how to get through the next decade

    Tis a shame that there isnt more propper discussion about ‘stuff’ on here –
    as even I’ve noticed less to when I first joined

    thing for me with this particular topic is I dont have a clue at the mo what to do with my own situation (whether to sell the house / rent it etc due to end of relationship)

    to even get a handle on the situation as a whole and feel too ‘stupid’ to be able to comment –
    as actually deleted the comment I made earlier before I posted it in case it didnt make sense or was wrong….

    also dont want to get laughed at in case I dont understand – and maybe thats another reason people dont post?

    As i understand it we’re in this situation because of heavy borrowing. As a society we borrow and have so much credit that it’s got to the stage where alot of people can’t repay it thus causing the bubble to burst. This in turn has fucked the banks as most of their ‘stock’ is held in this bad debt. They won’t lend anymore money out as they can’t garantee it’ll be repaid. This in turn stops people spending their money and is forcing alot of companies to close. This is causing mass layoffs, as i said before rather depressing stuff.

    Maybe as a nation if we stop spending beyond our means we might be better off in the future. Also as well if the banks are more responsible in lending money.

    Might be an idea as well to get this stupid fucking govt out of power and let someone else have a go.

    I might be wrong but this is how i understand the current situation.

    I have plans for the future as well but would rather keep it quiet just in case it goes wrong or someone steals my ideas.

    :love:

    @Tank Girl 309986 wrote:

    Tis a shame that there isnt more propper discussion about ‘stuff’ on here –
    as even I’ve noticed less to when I first joined

    thing for me with this particular topic is I dont have a clue at the mo what to do with my own situation (whether to sell the house / rent it etc due to end of relationship)

    to even get a handle on the situation as a whole and feel too ‘stupid’ to be able to comment –
    as actually deleted the comment I made earlier before I posted it in case it didnt make sense or was wrong….

    also dont want to get laughed at in case I dont understand – and maybe thats another reason people dont post?

    mate i know what you are getting at

    the bottom line is house prices don’t go from £13K to 370K in 30 years because they are actually worth that much more or because wages have increased that much more

    it’s the opposite

    this country produces nothing and our economy is based on nothing apart from fancy figures (that have been exposed as lies)

    if you can grasp that fact, you’ve got the truth in the palm of your hand… it’s no more complicated than that

    so, unless you have access to a small army, a remote island and the technology to produce all of your energy, food, water and building materials, you are in for a massive shock in the next few years

    what preparations are people taking? i’m not talking mad max stuff, just simple stuff like how will you cope with your regular stuff like leccy, gas, eggs, bread becoming more expensive than you pay for?

    it’s a massive elephant in the room and it will only get bigger if you ignore it

    globalloon;309991 wrote:
    this country produces nothing and our economy is based on nothing apart from fancy figures (that have been exposed as lies)

    if you can grasp that fact, you’ve got the truth in the palm of your hand… it’s no more complicated than that

    I understand the basics, but just not sure I can get into a whole discussion .. if that makes sense,

    I get quite angry sometimes though as I never been in debt, never had a credit / store card, only buy what I can actually physically afford
    (appart from the house :laugh_at:)
    and will work overtime inorder to go on holiday etc, and do a job that makes me feel worthwhile and yet ….
    I have no credit rating so it goes against me!!!

    To get the mortgage in the first place because of this and my wages was a fucking nightmare,

    and we are brought up to believe in all this shit – house is security – wish i was still renting!!!

    make walking away much easier for a start!! 😉

    but I dont know what will happen as some people even though it is staring them in the face dont give a fuck or are too scared to want to recognise what is going on….

    @DJCliffy 309987 wrote:

    Maybe as a nation if we stop spending beyond our means we might be better off in the future. [/quote]

    that is spot on. and what it means in reality is shrinking the economy.

    Quote:
    Might be an idea as well to get this stupid fucking govt out of power and let someone else have a go.

    but who???

    there is no-one suggesting that we shrink the economy, although that is the only reality that will work

    globalloon;309994 wrote:
    but who???

    there is no-one suggesting that we shrink the economy, although that is the only reality that will work

    Now that is difficult. All the parties are the same. Maybe let the liberals have a go. can’t be any worse than the other fuckers. 😉

    DJCliffy;309987 wrote:
    As i understand it we’re in this situation because of heavy borrowing. As a society we borrow and have so much credit that it’s got to the stage where alot of people can’t repay it thus causing the bubble to burst. This in turn has fucked the banks as most of their ‘stock’ is held in this bad debt. They won’t lend anymore money out as they can’t garantee it’ll be repaid. This in turn stops people spending their money and is forcing alot of companies to close. This is causing mass layoffs, as i said before rather depressing stuff.

    Maybe as a nation if we stop spending beyond our means we might be better off in the future. Also as well if the banks are more responsible in lending money.

    Might be an idea as well to get this stupid fucking govt out of power and let someone else have a go.

    I might be wrong but this is how i understand the current situation.

    I have plans for the future as well but would rather keep it quiet just in case it goes wrong or someone steals my ideas.

    :love:

    and even after they noticed things may sbe starting to go wrong it was covered up …. when the banks used to do was make “bundles” of debt and sell them …. ie. a bank was in trouble (we will call this bank (A) to make this explination a bit easyer for me).. so would sell some of it’s loans to another bank (bank (B)) .. and by this i mean the people who were origanly paing bank (A) the money they owed .. are now paing bank (B) …
    now this seems harmless enough … and probably would be if it was just as it seamed .. but when you used to get is not debt sold to other banks on there own …. they would bundle the debt … so there would be say 10 really shit debts that bank (A) didn’t want to keep and one good debt that was worth while keeping …but they would stick the one good one in a bundle with all the other 10 crap ones to make the whole bunndle look alot better than it was.. now this was done all the time by most banks .. so eventualy a load of cash had been paid out for crap loans that wern’t worth any thing making it look like the econamy was booming .. when really alot of money had been spent on things not worth that much:you_crazy (faulse econmics at work right there)

    globalloon;309982 wrote:
    this forum used to be a hot bed of ideas from people who were involved in lifestyles outside of the mainstream… those people who would be excited, rather than depressed, by the opportunities to re-shape society presented by the current economic situation

    it seems like no-one here either a) gives a fuck or b) has any ideas about how to get through the next decade or c) wants to understand why their comfortable lives are under threat and d) how to avoid it in future

    SHEEPLE

    a) not everyone knows there is an outside to the box
    b) when people realise, they have to learn how to see it
    c) when you finally see it you realise how bloody scary it is
    d) most people don’t like being scared (because they’re sane) so they hide

    Whilst I’ve been away from PV the crunch happened, i did think this place would be a-buzz with it all. I havent looked that hard at past posts but . . .

    Its a huge insane consensual halluination. I can’t get a credit card (tho i’ve never wanted one), because I havent had a bank balance till recent years, have no lending record, even a bad one! They only let you join the club if they can make money out of you

    Its a huge question, and I, like TG, dont feel i understand it.

    In early years I was radical, political, became disillusioned to be truthful

    Only conclusion I hav come to is to opt out. I am not Ghandi, I feel i cannot change the world, so older, maybe wiser (?), definately less naive I am thinking ‘land, me (maybe like-minded people), permaculture (see first recent post, but i don’t have an army

    I don’t really see what the problem is.

    Britain put al her eggs in one basket years ago letting manufacturing slide in exchange for begin an economic hub. Well now that that has failed horribly its really just reopened the country for real business.

    With everything back at a realistic value, i.e the pound is no longer artificially inflated, it should attract investors as we are a nation with the infrastructure required for modern industrial growth.

    If you think our economy if fucked look all around the world, everywhere that has focused on one main source of income; whether it be finance, oil or manufacturing. They are all just as fucked.

    Anyway I don’t really mind either way if it all gets better I will finish my degree and move to Spain away from it all. If it doesn’t I will go live on my family farm where we have loads of guns and food so I will be sorted.

    elretardo87;310097 wrote:
    I will go live on my family farm where we have loads of guns and food so I will be sorted.

    if u see someone running with a partyvibe flag towards ur farm plz dont shoot!!:laugh_at:

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Forums Life Money The British Economy