Forums › Love, Sex & Relationships › Rape, Sexual & Domestic Violence › Violence / Hate / Gender crimes – Getting Worse and can we stop it?
just read that shocking report from the North of England, where 4 young people drove out to a remote part of Sheffield, an argument ensued, a pistol was drawn and a young couple is now dead from gunshot wounds. None of the people involved were older than 20 and the youngest is 16 – two lives ended, another two people traumatised.
I constantly see reports of nasty assaults, racist attacks, even the fireside chats at raves (particularly from young girls) are often about failed relationships which have ended in physical violence 🙁 some of the posts I see on this board are also really harrowing. I used to think domestic violence was something old codgers did – now it seems teenagers are bad if not worse!
I also see a lot of posts and hear banter at raves which indicates that people today now think misogyny and racism are not only OK, but that violence of all kinds is an acceptable way to solve things.
I grew up in the early 80s before “political correctness”; and I think that society is worse than those days, there has been such a backlash against equality that society has moved backwards! Its not even the odd saucy joke (hell, I used to watch Benny Hill and find it funny!) but a real anger and hatred hidden behind the humour – a determination to “put certain groups back in their place”
Violence is increasing throughout our community; loads of my friends have been involved in actual fights, sometimes with each other! I was myself involved in a (minor) scuffle with a friend in 2003 which was the first time I had been involved in anything like that for 15 years
Thankfully another friend broke it up, but he has himself since had a nervous breakdown and himself had violent outbursts against his own flatmates, triggered in part by situations where he was increasingly using physical force to get his way.
Other friends of mine have been involved in scuffles; none of us are thugs so nothing major happened but it does affect the friendship, there is always a lingering mistrust and wariness and that will never go away.
A lot of the relationships friends have been involved in are breaking up now, sometimes very acrimoniously.
I’ve heard things about people I know I’d never have thought they were capable of, a very nasty incident happened amongst a couple I know recently which has destroyed so many positive things they were both trying to do and is causing friction amongst others – (a lot of the time domestic violence goes way further than a couple as each partners friends take sides)
Even at raves there has been bare ruckus – I don’t even mean the known violence at “London raves” but the idyllic outdoor surroundings; people are bringing old scores and beef to these events and fighting it out on the dancefloor, there is also a predatory attitude towards girls that wasnt there as much in the mid 90s.
Girls have had drinks spiked at house parties, girls in k-holes have been molested; any young female at some raves is constantly harrassed (including on-line harrasment), I’ve even had to warn my younger sister away from parties as they weren’t safe (and I don’t want to do time in HMP or Broadmoor because I deal myself with someone harrasing her!)
And when bad things happen in many cases cops, doctors, press, families and parents are all get involved and our scene is getting a bad name.
I used to think that this was just an “outside society” problem; and it wasn’t that prevalent on the rave scene – but I was just being hopelessly over-optimistic and naive. It appears to be worse than wider society; I know people in “conventional” society, even those who are highly religious and bound by strict cultural rules who are coming across as more tolerant and less aggressive than so called “ravers/hippies”!
(some of the stereotypes about gender roles in British Asian communities are complete rubbish – they turn out to be some of the most committed people to equality I have ever met!)
On our scene there is a real problem with “midweek aggression” – I’ve seen it loads amongst people I know particularly couples and communities in shared houses (its broken up many a squat) and it goes as far as actual agression against strangers including road rage (including hit and run RTCs where the driver clearly doesn’t care if he/she has injured/killed somebody!) – people are simply using anyone close to them as a punchbag on comedowns. the ends of large outdoor raves have a distinct “lord of the flies” mentality about them sometimes….
We claim our scene and lifestyles (hedonism, drug use, re-use via hijacking of others resources) should be tolerated because we are an open minded, tolerant and loving community (all that PLUR malarkey) – yet a proportion of party people (although by no means all) are doing exactly the opposite. This divides us and saps our power far worse than any “babylon system” ever can – and needs to stop before it stops our community.
:get_you: :blackeye: :ar15: :argue_mad :lol_crash The violence isn’t nothing new, only more broadcast. In the last few years has there been campaigns to stand up against domestic violence and cases have been brought to the media’s attention. Before these campaigns wifes subject to domestic voilence often kept the abuse to themselves and dared not let the neighbours know about it, as the mentality was it brought shame upon the family. ‘I fell down the stairs’ was always a good one.
Gangs of youths have always been around but back in the day they mostly preyed on rival gangs who were also out looking to do the same.
What has changed recently though is the mindless violence. Gangs preying on innocent public from other youths to OAP’s and this is what needs to be addressed. Youths do not have enough direction in their lives and I believe the educational system is failing them. With too much energy and too much time to kill there is going to be mischief, and thus the mischief becomes worse as time progresses.
Maybe I’ll write some more later…
:you_smart :rant: :blackeye: :get_you: :ar15: :head_to_h :argue_mad :argue_cur
agreed, but the backlash against gender violence and hate crime started a good few years ago particularly in progressive/socialist political circles; it is only recently that cops and courts have been properly enforcing the law, but even 10 years ago these incidents were being reported, particularly in local press which are always hungry for crime news.
(in the mid 90s I was looking for a career in journalism and started checking every local paper intensely for crime reports, I still do this although nowadays its web-based)
I’m also looking at a broad picture of not just violence between partners but violence between housemates, violence against strangers because of race/appearance/lifestyle, and I don’t mean a few raised voices, I’m thinking about stuff which draws blood or requires NHS treatment of any kind..
what I have seen happening is it dropped during the mid 90s (possibly as the dot com boom meant more money was around?) but there has been a “backlash against political correctness” which has been warped into a new ethos “its cool to hate and fight!”
something I have noticed real life is that younger people are becoming more violent in their relationships despite being told its “unacceptable/you will get nicked etc”. it may be the case it always happened and is being reported more, but from the reports I am seeing it seems people are handling rejection worse and simply taking it out on their ex. A young English lad going to all the trouble to procure a firearm in a country where they are not usually carried, and using it to end the life of someone he once loved is extreme, and this is the second time I have seen this in less than a year (the last time it happened was down the road from Reading).
worse still young people are not even challenging violent behaviour in relationships; you’d expect middle aged people to be set in their ways and refuse to accept “left-wing views” and think people should “know their place” but teens do seem to be hating more and loving less (look at the crime reports in any region now..) even if they don’t beat their partners, they fight rather than talk and its not enough to knock out your rival. they have to be stamped on, bones broken or permanent disabilities caused. its commonplace to carry a knife. there is even acid throwing nowadays in gang fights, and of course a “gun makes someone the big g”
You always had wifebeaters, wannabe “hard men” who’d “start a fight in an empty house” and racists (white, brown, black and yellow, all races can be as bad as each other…) – but it all fell out of favour in the heyday of the rave scene for a bit – however things have got worse. We cannot deny it – you get lads who claim to be ravers bigging up the NF, or arranging fights at raves etc…
I think its also linked with racism and random violence; if youths think its OK to hate and to fight clearly they are going to do so as much as possible, and look to justify their actions by finding enemies.
I think the mindless violence, domestic violence, and even terrorism are all linked. I’ve even said the only reason there aren’t more bombs and bombers is that a lot of kids just don’t have the chemistry knowledge due to crap education – not that they lack the inclination (most kids who become bombers, Asian or White, are groomed by older men who pass down knowledge on making IEDs they have themselves learnt whilst part of paramilitary organisations).
there have been a number of Western suicide bombers. they differ from their Asian counterparts inasmuch that they are not motivated by political events but often merely by alienation and hate, and do not give many clues of their action (thus making them even more dangerous IMO!)
Two examples happened in Finland and Estonia; the Finnish cops still have not worked out why a 19-year old man blew himself up without warning in a packed shopping centre in 2002; in Estonia the bomber was actually somone being arrested for domestic violence against his girlfriend. He let a female police officer “arrest” him; and then blew himself, the WPC and a police dog up as well as destroying the patrol car….
Once people find they can make others do their will using force, they will persist in doing so until they are stopped; and even if they mean to destroy themselves many are taking others with them (such as the ufton nervet train crash driver)
Things are most definately going downhill. I’m a fairly recent addition to the rave scene, only started about 18 months ago, no idea how it managed to pass me by until I was 20 but anyway…
I was always really into rock/punk nights and found in general that our local crowd was pretty good. You would almost never see violence inside the club, I think I remember 3 occasions in 5 years. It seems that the younger generation (who’ll be around 15-18 now) doesn’t share the same good nature.
I can’t stand going out to those places now, you don’t feel like you can start talking to a stranger in case they start having a go. I really don’t understand the mentality of it. I was almost in a fight around a month ago when I started talking to a girl in a NOFX shirt, suddenly theres this guy shoving me telling me to get away from his girlfriend! The thing I found really shocking was seeing her look at him in admiration.
Women always say they want nice guys with a sense of humor etc etc. But I know lots of nice guys, most of them are single. I know wankers, most of them have beautiful girlfriends. And teenage boys will do anything to impress girls, including turning into the very thing the whole scene is supposed to be a backlast against.
“They lost the morals, and kept the weed”
“They lost the morals, and kept the weed”[/quote]
I’ll be brutally honest and say in many cases I think its only ketamine which is stopping raves becoming absolute bloodbaths (which happened in London and has only been combated by a massive downsizing of the scene and making it less inclusive). Being about 10 years older than yourself and holeydel; I have seen the early 80s when things were almost as bad; and there was a more positive time in the mid 90s when the rave scene was at its height – although money has a lot to do with it IMO; when this is plentiful people become less competitive generally….
I think this is a throwback from animal behaviour – females are genetically programmed to look for “stronger” specimens for mating; and when we were “humanzees” it was acceptable for a caveman to fight for mates, to mate using physical force rather than consent and/or literally steal a female from someone physically weaker by overpowering them, eliminating the rival family by killing the offspring and hiding (or even eating!) the bodies
Males of most mammal species will fight a rival tribe and eliminate the males but take females for their own; something that happens within colonies of chimps and other jungle creatures (notably other primates and large cats)
Of course if a human does that nowadays (and people still try such things) they end up in prison or mental secure unit for a very long time – we have the concepts of society which state the need for consent and non-violence within relationships. this is the very essence of what makes us human – it should always be part of a decent persons behaviour!
I touched upon this problem of girls being attracted to violent men when discussing the Mary-Ann Lenegan murder case on this board in the summer.
It caused a bit of a stir and I felt bad as I thought I had raised a sore point or bad memory with one of the girls on here by her reaction and she has not posted much on here since – although the victims never deserve violence I do think the ladies have to take some responsibility for themselves and not be so easily taken in (and lads as well need to be more choosy about who they make friends with and what they may do as a “crew” or “posse”)
We all have to be less reticent about “grassing” on violent people and never accept violence as normal. Its not that we should not defend ourselves if attacked, but violence should never be a quick solution.
I don’t mean going to the cops although in some cases (when someone is seriously hurt or killed) this may even have to be done; just a matter of peer pressure – ostracising these people – challenging their behaviour when it is safe to do so – I have done so myself by not giving partylines etc to people who I know are prone to fighting or predatory behaviour, even cutting long-term friends out of my life because of stuff like this…
otherwise we will always have to be fearful… a good point was made in the Guardian that a woman can become CEO of her firm but she is still wary to walk back from the office in the dark – yet men are 3 times more likely to be attacked or involved in violence, which shows how bad things really are…
I think that one aggravating factor in the whole violence thing could well be the fact that our figureheads (Bush/Blair and co.) have also taken a regressive approach in their disgusting attempts to get what they want. Their actions – whilst evidently not a collectively conscious thing – may seem to many to condone the use of force on the domestic scale to get our way.
Their politics of fear have done a grand job of making us all much more suspicious of each other and the panicky 19 year old American sniper shooting civilians from Fallujah rooftops is fooled by the same mass hysteria that has been used to make us all nervous of anyone that is different to us.
Not only do we see messages on the Underground warning people who look ‘a bit foreign’ not to run:
http://gallery.partyvibe.com/v/user_pictures/site/NottingHillGate.jpg.html
we are also frightened of our own youth. In our local paper today there is an article about an old lady who is holding a demonstration over our local ring-road because she refuses to walk through the subway. The trigger event that made her decide to take action was not that it smells of wee (which it does and is horrible), but that she had seen two youths on skates go under there just before her and was frightened of what they might do. Now there’s no denying that if you are mugged it is more likely to happen in a subway then at street level, but the part that struck me was that she assumed that that was what these kids were going to do. The article presents the matter as if the kids actually had mugged her!
I’m not suggesting that violence doesn’t happen on a frighteningly regular basis and I find myself constantly on my guard when out and about, it’s just that I think it’s important to do a quick reality check sometimes when you start to feel the rising collective panic. As you said:
‘Some of the stereotypes about gender roles in British Asian communities are complete rubbish – they turn out to be some of the most committed people to equality I have ever met!’
When people actually bother to find out about a lifestyle different from their own they usually quite quickly slip into the ‘some of my best friends are (Gay/Black/Muslim/Foreign etc.)’ state of mind at least until they bother to move onto the next stereotyped group.
This fear is similar to the fear of the corruption of our youth that successive generations of people in ‘wider’ society have felt. Jazz was banned in some places when it emerged, as was rock and roll, then metal, then rave etc. I know from my own experience growing up that there is a certain amount of satisfaction to be gained from being told to ‘turn that racket down’, particularly when you know that what you’re listening to has far more artistic integrity and is more ground-breaking than anything released by the Beatles! There’s no denying too that certain forms of dance music deliberately set out to be obnoxious (‘you know who you are – gabber techno!’). Every DJ knows that you can change the mood of a room simply by putting on a different record and its no surprise therefore that some genres seem to attract more trouble than others. We went to Drop Beats not Bombs in Birmingham the other week and I’m sure that the focus on D’n’B was a major factor in the slightly moody vibe that was perceived by a lot of my mates (which is ironic considering the nature of the event). Again though it’s important to run a quick reality check in these situations because a lot of D’n’B is about posing, in the same way that guys at metal/goth concerts enjoy a good pout!
Environment also plays a huge part on vibe – as you said (kind of), Ket can have quite an anaesthetising effect on things – I find some D’n’B events filled with a certain amount of skunky paranoia (although at times even that’s part of its charm!) and I think it’s also true that a lot of violence experienced by people at both legal and illegal events often results from either people getting silly-fucked or from actual drugs politics spilling into the work-place! The silly-fucked folk it seems are either made up of the same people who would fight because they can’t handle their beer or those who have come out specifically to cause trouble. This latter group have been around forever (see Quadrophenia etc.) and I suspect is a bit of a drug itself aided by the disassociative excuse that getting silly-fucked permits. In either case, it will be difficult for this to be rooted out of our scene until drugs become less of a focus which I’m not sure many of us who’ve had mind-blowingly positive drug experiences would want. Changes to prohibition laws may remove some of this problem but an element would probably still remain unfortunately.
I also think that it’s important not to lump all forms of violence together. Domestic violence is about sexual and emotional power/inadequacy and is totally different (other than the injury to others aspect) to the ‘good-times’ violence that takes place in city centres/events every weekend which in turn is different to the violence born from the frustration that deprivation causes in an increasingly materialistic society (to me this manifests itself particularly often in forms of music that worship ‘bling’) and it is also no surprise that it is in deprived areas that you are most likely to suffer this form of violence.
I do think however that anyone who commits an aggressive act clearly needs help as well as the victim (of course the victim needs support but there are at least some mechanisms in place for support to be accessed). As soon as a violent act takes place wider society needs to get to the route cause of why that person was acting that way in the first place and help them to address their sexual, emotional, deprivation, self-worth issues and only then will the problem start to subside. Sending folks to prison without addressing their problems can surely only compound the problem. It seems that the linking factor in all these forms is the inability for people to address the issues verbally themselves that causes them to lash out, and at the moment Bush and Blair are signalling that it’s ok for them to do so.
It is only when all of these issues have been addressed that we will be able to see an improvement. Hopefully through vigilance and love we can begin to address the issues in our own back yard. Hardcore till I Die in Brum has recently advised that they will be photographing/banning any trouble makers and whilst this obviously cannot be 100% effective it is a start to addressing something that we have often been guilty of turning a blind eye to. I would hope that those of us who ‘get’ the PLUR thing would carry on gathering and doing our thing regardless of future changes to the scene. There are some issues we can address ourselves – others are clearly problems that can only be tackled by society as a whole. Understanding why folks behave the way that they do is at the root of PLUR (particularly the R!) and it is only when we address peoples issues with that respect (rather than being blinded by stereotypes) that positive change can take place. Maybe one contribution that we can make is through taking the PLUR mantra to wider society as a whole and to keep repeating it until they realise that the message applies to every aspect of life, not just to the strange hippy folk and their strangely hypnotic beats! – PLUR (Sorry for the length of the post – just got in from work and well you know – haven’t had time to chill if you catch my drift!)
wow – thanks ideosphere for such an informative reply!
I totally agree with you that our countries war is making things worse – at least inasmuch that it gives out a message that it is OK to overpower someone to take their resources…. but I also think its a bit simplistic and passing the buck” to blame everything on the Government.
you certainly can’t blame Tony Blair for domestic violence – he has abysmal foreign policy (TBH I think this is itself “bullying” by the Yanks who would cause an economic crisis in our country by withdrawing investment if we refused to go along with their war)
However as far as family values go the man is spot on, a loving husband and father who accepts the role of a very strong woman as his wife – how many blokes would allow their missus to have a job where she directly challenges a lot of his policies (Cherie is a QC and has defended loads of terrorism suspects).
As for D&B/race/culture things. Its my favourite music, and I am Asian.
I probably do look like a moody Asian chav at raves and I tend not to smile much at raves unless I am with really good friends but that is not because I want to start trouble; its just that I don’t smile much anyway as there is not a lot to smile about in todays world; and its seen on the street as being a “grinning idiot” or even being threatening (i,e what the fuck are you smiling at?) and you can get trouble for smiling too much (especially if you are smiling at a girl who is someone elses partner!)
that said I try not to make assumptions about people and eventually do get to know them, but have to keep a guard up at the start. its basic self-preservation.
I think you should distinguish between root causes of violence but whilst not “lumping them together” realise there are links. IME someone who beats their partner is way more likely to start a fight in a bar or become a gangster or even a terrorist, or to beat up someone because they do not agree with their lifestyle. as I mentioned once someone realises they have power over others they will use it to achieve their aims.
A good example is that loyalist terrorist bloke who altough he is not blowing up stuff or shooting people was recently nicked because he was slapping his wife about in a public park – clearly he did not care that there would be witnesses.
And if someone is willing to use force against a person they claim to care for, whats stopping them attacking strangers? Now the authorities are finally trying to stop violent crime (perhaps too little too late) they are noticing these links
A lot of popular culture and media also champions the “hard man” lifestyle – its always been on the outskirts of clubland but is becoming more popular now… until this is actually challenged – not by going soft but by finding better role models particularly for blokes (such as people like explorers who have spent months out in inhospitable jungle but lived with nature, or builders, engineers and inventors who combine physical strength and intelligence to create a useful output for society) its going to get worse.
Most of you know my sexuality as Gay and those that don´t do now.
The only hate crime I would have experienced would just be the general name calling you would get from the odd biggot and from my ex partners ex girlfriend – and understandably so.
I am pleased to report that my last experience with the police involving hate crime was more pleasant than expected. It involved his ex girlfriend who was insistant in talking to me and to see why he cheated on her and who with. He wouldnt let her past and she began name calling and threatening to kill me. When he phoned the Police they could hear her threats and came quite quickly and were very empathetic for his situation.
He never wanted to prosecute but depending on what we said, the Police could take matters into their own hands and charge anyway.
They also did a risk assesment. Risk to either of us and her repeating the offence and perhaps progressing to murder or harming herself.
I dont know if this information is of use to anyone but remember that the Police are there when needed. Some people hate the Police for busting our fun but hate crime is serious and because of the seriousness of this crime they will prosecute if you give them the information and are prepared to take matters further.
I just hope that if you are a victim, you do coincider this as an option open to you all.
PLUR
Elliot
The only hate crime I would have experienced would just be the general name calling you would get from the odd biggot and from my ex partners ex girlfriend – and understandably so.
I am pleased to report that my last experience with the police involving hate crime was more pleasant than expected. It involved his ex girlfriend who was insistant in talking to me and to see why he cheated on her and who with. He wouldnt let her past and she began name calling and threatening to kill me. When he phoned the Police they could hear her threats and came quite quickly and were very empathetic for his situation.
He never wanted to prosecute but depending on what we said, the Police could take matters into their own hands and charge anyway.
They also did a risk assesment. Risk to either of us and her repeating the offence and perhaps progressing to murder or harming herself.
I dont know if this information is of use to anyone but remember that the Police are there when needed. Some people hate the Police for busting our fun but hate crime is serious and because of the seriousness of this crime they will prosecute if you give them the information and are prepared to take matters further.
I just hope that if you are a victim, you do coincider this as an option open to you all.
PLUR
Elliot
to be fair on Thames Valley Police, they can be good at dealing with this sort of crime amongst younger people who lead different lifestyles (they also deserve credit for catching the bastards who killed Mary Ann Leneghan and injured her friend).
I have even heard of cops attending Travellers sites to arrest men beating their partners (which resulted also in a load of stolen items being found and the site being evicted – another instance where domestic violence has affected many others),
The only times they do fall short of expectations is, ironically, dealing with violence between Middle Englanders in “stable” families which is often missed.
However I think the reason cops are dealing with domestic violence amongst “alternative society” is only simply because they “don’t believe all that hippy crap”, they think “this scene is all run on drugs, money and power”, and they expect us all to behave like a bunch of thugs and animals who need to be protected from ourselves and each other – and sadly a lot of things often happen which help to prove their point…
OTOH (as scanning cops radios is no longer possible and this happened some years ago) I think its safe to let on that one reason Ridgeway raves continued for so many years is because cops in West Berkshire (where most of these events happen) were otherwise tied up every weekend dealing with very nasty domestic incidents in that area; often in high-value housing areas and amongst “normal people”….
what does worry me though these days is I’m hearing of many incidents where the Police come across as “more PC” than some people who claim to be ravers, and people even moan because cops are doing stuff like intervening to stop domestic violence or even punishment beatings at raves (TVP mysteriously appeared in some number once at an outdoor rave just as a bloke suspected of molesting girls was about to get a solid kicking from the male contingent of the rave).
There is definitely a danger of alternative lifestyles such as raving/creating “community spaces” being hijacked patriarchal libertarianism coming back to this scene; a feeling that “its a mans world” and that “you fight your corner by any means necessary (including the use of knives and firearms)” – and in an “unregulated” community that can be dangerous.
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